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Old 01-19-2013, 10:00   #241
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Yep, that's why I consider myself an agnostic atheist. It's possible, but I have yet to see any evidence that it is MORE probable than the scenario that it happened through undesigned/unintended natural processes.
Slightly different labels, only a change in the noun and adjective, same words, and we would be in almost total agreement.

Close enough for all practical purposes.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:04   #242
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Practicing medicine without a license IS fraud.
...
You are right, my mistake. Lets say they display their license, with a sign next to it explaining that it has been revoked and why.

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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
...
And what if the person that commits fraud refuses to stop and refuses to submit to the justice system? You just tell them "Shame on you" and let'em go?
...
I will answer this question, but only after you answer the question I've been trying to get you to answer.

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...
Practicing medicine without a license can most certainly harm someone. It can kill them.
...
But it is a voluntary exchange. I said fraud should be illegal. If a patient wants to take a chance on medical care by someone less qualified, that is their choice.

I didn't take the time to fully explain this point, because I didn't know if it would be necessary.

Choosing business A over business B does harm business B, but that is not what I'm talking about. I mean directly harm, in a non-voluntary situation.

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...
And if a person trusts a fraudulent medical practitioner because they talk a good game but really have no clue what they're doing?
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I said fraud should be illegal.

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Then what? What happens when a person trusts an unlicensed medical practitioner and winds up with AIDS from unclean equipment? Or perhaps just loses a leg from gangrene from a botched surgical procedure? A mother takes her kid there because she can't afford the real hospital and the child dies from a misdiagnosis or improper treatment?
...
In a free market, business that make these serious mistakes would fail very quickly.

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You're way won't work my friend.
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I disagree.

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People will take advantage of the lack or regulation and innocent people will get hurt or killed.
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Are you under the impression that regulation doesn't kill anyone?

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Of course I do but what you are advocating is bordering on anarchy.
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I know. I've said many times both here and in GTPI that I'm libertarian almost to the point of being anarchist.

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It can't work. People are the problem. "As long as it isn't hurting anyone." That's shaky ground. What about a child molester and the kid willingly participates and isn't hurt? The kid even says "I wanted it and agreed." That ok in your "As long as nobody gets hurt" society? I'm not suggesting that's your position. I'm asking. If NO... why? No one got hurt.
No. I do believe in laws on age of consent. Children many times do not understand the consequences of decisions that they make.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:10   #243
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...
If you respond and I don't get back to you soon don't think I'm ignoring you. I just have a lot going on on the weekends. I'll get back to it if you reply.
Hey no problem man, I misread one of your posts and was trying to figure out if you were calling me a troll.

I read "several troll posts" as "several trolls post" and got mixed up.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:28   #244
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Who said it was magic?

You made my point exactly. Science doesn't have all the answers
What is another word for supernatural? I think magic fits, no? The idea of "God" certainly seems supernatural to me. An omnipotent, omnipresent being that created everything around us. Sounds pretty magical to me.

Science couldn't explain why we got sick if we didn't wash our hands after we pooped, once upon a time. It didn't mean that "God" was mad at us for something.

So, we're right back to my original point - just because science can't explain something *yet* doesn't mean that "God" did it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:31   #245
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You really have to see where I'm going now, especially if you are reading comments from others on this exercise.
Leave me out of this, jackhole. I can't be held responsible for my own action of posting in this thread yet again.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:37   #246
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Leave me out of this, jackhole. I can't be held responsible for my own action of posting in this thread yet again.
Man I love GTRI.

Maybe as much as they like hockey in Canada.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:53   #247
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I'm sure it's right around the corner. Just give us a couple more days and we will all agree on everything.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:56   #248
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
What is another word for supernatural? I think magic fits, no? The idea of "God" certainly seems supernatural to me. An omnipotent, omnipresent being that created everything around us. Sounds pretty magical to me.

Science couldn't explain why we got sick if we didn't wash our hands after we pooped, once upon a time. It didn't mean that "God" was mad at us for something.

So, we're right back to my original point - just because science can't explain something *yet* doesn't mean that "God" did it.
Just something to think about. But if a deity did create life, the heavens and earth etc, wouldn't that have been the nature of reality, not really supernatural? Maybe beyond comprehension of the folks at the time, but not outside the boundaries of the rules of physics and the law of nature. I think a lot of people get stuck on the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient criteria.

Maybe a "creator" wasn't all powerful, but just really smart with cool toys, maybe even mortal.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:00   #249
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Slightly different labels, only a change in the noun and adjective, same words, and we would be in almost total agreement.

Close enough for all practical purposes.
As you said earlier, disbelief is active, lack of belief is passive. To me, agnostic atheism means a lack of belief. Gnostic atheism would be active disbelief. A subtle difference, but as you said, an important one.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:06   #250
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As you said earlier, disbelief is active, lack of belief is passive. To me, agnostic atheism means a lack of belief. Gnostic atheism would be active disbelief. A subtle difference, but as you said, an important one.
An agnostic atheist and an atheistic agnostic are different, but about as close as we are likely to get. Just different ways of looking at it. No graphical representation is likely to fit every combination of belief and personal surety of that belief.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:06   #251
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Just something to think about. But if a deity did create life, the heavens and earth etc, wouldn't that have been the nature of reality, not really supernatural? Maybe beyond comprehension of the folks at the time, but not outside the boundaries of the rules of physics and the law of nature.
Depends on the definition of "natural", I guess. Beyond the bounds of what we currently understand as the natural world? Yes, absolutely. If it actually happened, that makes it not outside the bounds of nature, I suppose.


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I think a lot of people get stuck on the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient criteria.
Those are very central characteristics to the commonly accepted definition of "God", though. If you throw those out, you are essentially now talking about some other creator or creative force.

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Maybe a "creator" wasn't all powerful, but just really smart with cool toys, maybe even mortal.
Again, if this is true, that's not "God" or gods in the commonly accepted sense.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:07   #252
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An agnostic atheist and an atheistic agnostic are different, but about as close as we are likely to get. Just different ways of looking at it. No graphical representation is likely to fit every combination of belief and personal surety of that belief.

Can you explain the differences? I'm not sure I'm picking them up.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:13   #253
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Slightly different labels, only a change in the noun and adjective, same words, and we would be in almost total agreement.

Close enough for all practical purposes.
They are both nouns, neither are adjectives.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:33   #254
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Syclone was headed to Paris, France with this discussion, but you drove to Paris, Texas. Totally missing his point.
It's ok. It's a thought experiment to get him to think about the consequences of the things he advocates. I have every intention of following it to a conclusion, even if we go on a detour.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:34   #255
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No offense meant. But a lot of the arguments I've seen here tend to revolve around the age of the earth, the fact that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale, the ark is not supported by genetic or fossil records.

So? None of that proves there was not a deity.

A lot of theists, especially Christians, feel differently. Case in point:


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It's the word of God and an instruction book for Man to follow.
There's NO higher authority to bear witness to the president's oath of office.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:40   #256
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Mind if I play though? Glad I'm not sick.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:41   #257
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They are both nouns, neither are adjectives.
Sorta depends on how you use them. I'm being admittedly agnostocentric [sic] though.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:50   #258
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Can you explain the differences? I'm not sure I'm picking them up.
OK, but I understand that there are different ways to look at this. You've seen the two dimensional graph that has belief and knowledge as perpendicularly related concepts. I disagree with that. I see belief and knowledge as a slightly oblique, almost parallel relationship. It may be possible to know some things, but events that happened prior to the first living cell on the planet weren't witnessed by any of us, and no detailed record exists that describes it well. So on the question of whether or not there is a deity, I doubt that many, if any really know. I think a lot of people have belief. So I look at it in a linear fashion. Three main categories, Atheist, Agnostic, and Theist. In between agnostic and the other two would still be an agnostic with tendencies of the other one. I see someone that is really not sure there is a god, but is fairly sure there isn't one, as an atheistic agnostic. An agnostic atheist doesn't make as much sense to me, because the atheist has decided on what to believe.

It makes more sense to me that way, not to others. There may be a tendency to focus on ourselves. An atheist might just naturally believe that agnostics are atheists too. A theist might believe that agnostics and atheists are both heathens and lump them together too. But to me, I see a distinction between agnostic and atheist, especially for the more militant ones.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:54   #259
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A lot of theists, especially Christians, feel differently. Case in point:
There are no shortages of opinions around here.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:05   #260
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This video gives a huge amount of evidence for how it could happen naturally. There is absolutely no reason to assume that life cannot come about without supernatural means. How many other complex chemical interactions do we not fully understand yet? Why don't we hold those unknown phenomena up as holy?

Assuming we should have this figured out by now is assuming that we know every single way the elements can interact with each other and there are no new chemistry discoveries to be made.

Jack Szostak (Harvard/HHMI) Part 1: The Origin of Cellular Life on Earth - YouTube
That's my point actually. 2 possibilities. No answers. Those rejecting supernatural are closed minded.

And I'm not even talking about how life started. I'm more focuses on how it is started every day
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