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Old 01-19-2013, 10:06   #251
hooligan74
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Just something to think about. But if a deity did create life, the heavens and earth etc, wouldn't that have been the nature of reality, not really supernatural? Maybe beyond comprehension of the folks at the time, but not outside the boundaries of the rules of physics and the law of nature.
Depends on the definition of "natural", I guess. Beyond the bounds of what we currently understand as the natural world? Yes, absolutely. If it actually happened, that makes it not outside the bounds of nature, I suppose.


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I think a lot of people get stuck on the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient criteria.
Those are very central characteristics to the commonly accepted definition of "God", though. If you throw those out, you are essentially now talking about some other creator or creative force.

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Maybe a "creator" wasn't all powerful, but just really smart with cool toys, maybe even mortal.
Again, if this is true, that's not "God" or gods in the commonly accepted sense.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:07   #252
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An agnostic atheist and an atheistic agnostic are different, but about as close as we are likely to get. Just different ways of looking at it. No graphical representation is likely to fit every combination of belief and personal surety of that belief.

Can you explain the differences? I'm not sure I'm picking them up.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:13   #253
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Slightly different labels, only a change in the noun and adjective, same words, and we would be in almost total agreement.

Close enough for all practical purposes.
They are both nouns, neither are adjectives.
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:33   #254
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Syclone was headed to Paris, France with this discussion, but you drove to Paris, Texas. Totally missing his point.
It's ok. It's a thought experiment to get him to think about the consequences of the things he advocates. I have every intention of following it to a conclusion, even if we go on a detour.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:34   #255
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No offense meant. But a lot of the arguments I've seen here tend to revolve around the age of the earth, the fact that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale, the ark is not supported by genetic or fossil records.

So? None of that proves there was not a deity.

A lot of theists, especially Christians, feel differently. Case in point:


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It's the word of God and an instruction book for Man to follow.
There's NO higher authority to bear witness to the president's oath of office.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:40   #256
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Mind if I play though? Glad I'm not sick.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:41   #257
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They are both nouns, neither are adjectives.
Sorta depends on how you use them. I'm being admittedly agnostocentric [sic] though.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:50   #258
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Can you explain the differences? I'm not sure I'm picking them up.
OK, but I understand that there are different ways to look at this. You've seen the two dimensional graph that has belief and knowledge as perpendicularly related concepts. I disagree with that. I see belief and knowledge as a slightly oblique, almost parallel relationship. It may be possible to know some things, but events that happened prior to the first living cell on the planet weren't witnessed by any of us, and no detailed record exists that describes it well. So on the question of whether or not there is a deity, I doubt that many, if any really know. I think a lot of people have belief. So I look at it in a linear fashion. Three main categories, Atheist, Agnostic, and Theist. In between agnostic and the other two would still be an agnostic with tendencies of the other one. I see someone that is really not sure there is a god, but is fairly sure there isn't one, as an atheistic agnostic. An agnostic atheist doesn't make as much sense to me, because the atheist has decided on what to believe.

It makes more sense to me that way, not to others. There may be a tendency to focus on ourselves. An atheist might just naturally believe that agnostics are atheists too. A theist might believe that agnostics and atheists are both heathens and lump them together too. But to me, I see a distinction between agnostic and atheist, especially for the more militant ones.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:54   #259
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A lot of theists, especially Christians, feel differently. Case in point:
There are no shortages of opinions around here.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:05   #260
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This video gives a huge amount of evidence for how it could happen naturally. There is absolutely no reason to assume that life cannot come about without supernatural means. How many other complex chemical interactions do we not fully understand yet? Why don't we hold those unknown phenomena up as holy?

Assuming we should have this figured out by now is assuming that we know every single way the elements can interact with each other and there are no new chemistry discoveries to be made.

Jack Szostak (Harvard/HHMI) Part 1: The Origin of Cellular Life on Earth - YouTube
That's my point actually. 2 possibilities. No answers. Those rejecting supernatural are closed minded.

And I'm not even talking about how life started. I'm more focuses on how it is started every day
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:08   #261
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What is another word for supernatural? I think magic fits, no? The idea of "God" certainly seems supernatural to me. An omnipotent, omnipresent being that created everything around us. Sounds pretty magical to me.

Science couldn't explain why we got sick if we didn't wash our hands after we pooped, once upon a time. It didn't mean that "God" was mad at us for something.

So, we're right back to my original point - just because science can't explain something *yet* doesn't mean that "God" did it.
I didn't say it did. The other side of this argument wants to reject that possibility.

So that you know where I'm coming from. I think people who accept a literal interpretation of Biblical creation are fools.

Clearer now?
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:59   #262
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...An agnostic atheist doesn't make as much sense to me, because the atheist has decided on what to believe...
This is the only real issue I have with that post. Atheists have NOT decided what to believe. They only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in dieties.

For example, I don't have the belief that aliens "planted" life on this planet. However, if I did, that would still be consistent with being atheistic.
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Old 01-19-2013, 13:02   #263
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I didn't say it did. The other side of this argument wants to reject that possibility.

So that you know where I'm coming from. I think people who accept a literal interpretation of Biblical creation are fools.

Clearer now?

Yes, thank you. Your original post made it read as though you were in the "if science can't explain it, God did it" camp, to me at least.

I apologize if I was reading too much into your posts.

I don't want to reject any premise, actively. I just think it's foolish to give credence to any theory that has absolutely zero physical evidence to back it up.
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Old 01-19-2013, 13:37   #264
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That's my point actually. 2 possibilities. No answers. Those rejecting supernatural are closed minded.

And I'm not even talking about how life started. I'm more focuses on how it is started every day
What do you mean by "how it is started everyday"? It started once and has perpetuated every day since then.

I don't reject the supernatural. I just assign it a very low probability since it's basically just a theory with no supporting evidence. I don't like people claiming that life not having been created by humans at this point in history somehow suggests that it's an insurmountable problem which points to the probability of a supernatural involvement.

That would suggest that the next big breakthrough in battery chemistry is supernatural because we haven't made it work as of this moment. This is nothing more than going with the theory that has the most supporting evidence behind it as we do in all other aspects of science.
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Old 01-19-2013, 15:14   #265
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That's my point actually. 2 possibilities. No answers. Those rejecting supernatural are closed minded.
No, those dismissing the supernatural are relying on the number of times something supernatural has been 1. Proven and 2. Proven to be the cause of anything in nature. Both are a big fat goose egg. If there were evidence of supernatural events occurring then the rational thinkers among us might just consider the possibility. But at this point... no such evidence exists... just a bunch of stories, myths, and legends. Until such a time there is simply no need to consider supernatural causes. There's no reason to consider that magic elves created life on this planet. Why? Because there is no evidence that magic elves exist let alone have ever done anything ever.

You are correct the final answer still evades us. But we have mountains of evidence that these things occur naturally in hand A and absolutely ZERO evidence that these things occur supernaturally in hand B. So, safe odds are to go with what keeps producing testable and verifiable data... Hand A.

Religion and the supernatural tell us nothing. Because they are created by men that knew nothing of the natural world. Garbage in... Garbage out.
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Old 01-19-2013, 15:14   #266
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What do you mean by "how it is started everyday"? It started once and has perpetuated every day since then.

I don't reject the supernatural. I just assign it a very low probability since it's basically just a theory with no supporting evidence. I don't like people claiming that life not having been created by humans at this point in history somehow suggests that it's an insurmountable problem which points to the probability of a supernatural involvement.

That would suggest that the next big breakthrough in battery chemistry is supernatural because we haven't made it work as of this moment. This is nothing more than going with the theory that has the most supporting evidence behind it as we do in all other aspects of science.
Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
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Old 01-19-2013, 15:16   #267
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I don't like people claiming that life not having been created by humans at this point in history somehow suggests that it's an insurmountable problem which points to the probability of a supernatural involvement.
The fact that we're as close as we are just shows it doesn't take a God... or that if it did... God isn't much more "Supreme" than we are.
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Old 01-19-2013, 15:16   #268
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No, those dismissing the supernatural are relying on the number of times something supernatural has been 1. Proven and 2. Proven to be the cause of anything in nature. Both are a big fat goose egg. If there were evidence of supernatural events occurring then the rational thinkers among us might just consider the possibility. But at this point... no such evidence exists... just a bunch of stories, myths, and legends. Until such a time there is simply no need to consider supernatural causes. There's no reason to consider that magic elves created life on this planet. Why? Because there is no evidence that magic elves exist let alone have ever done anything ever.

You are correct the final answer still evades us. But we have mountains of evidence that these things occur naturally in hand A and absolutely ZERO evidence that these things occur supernaturally in hand B. So, safe odds are to go with what keeps producing testable and verifiable data... Hand A.

Religion and the supernatural tell us nothing. Because they are created by men that knew nothing of the natural world. Garbage in... Garbage out.
You ignore the plethora of unexplainable phenomena.
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Old 01-19-2013, 15:17   #269
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You ignore the plethora of unexplainable phenomena.
No... it's just unexplained. You're the one assuming it must be supernatural. It's just unexplained. But we'll get there. And the methods that have been working great for us in science will ultimately get it done.

God has fewer and fewer gaps to hide in everyday.
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Old 01-19-2013, 15:21   #270
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Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
Life isn't nothing. We did start in a puddle of goo... but we are a creation of nature.

There was a time scientists couldn't figure out a way to make man fly. We tried it for centuries and mostly always failed. But eventually we gained the knowledge and do it daily now. I don't understand why you think that because we can't explain it right now this very second that must mean it's supernatural in nature.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:03   #271
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You are right, my mistake. Lets say they display their license, with a sign next to it explaining that it has been revoked and why.
That's still illegal.

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I will answer this question, but only after you answer the question I've been trying to get you to answer.
Doesn't have to end in death. We have non-lethal means now of taking people into custody. Tear gas and tasers. Now if they take up a weapon and start shooting... then you gotta drop them.

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But it is a voluntary exchange. I said fraud should be illegal. If a patient wants to take a chance on medical care by someone less qualified, that is their choice.
With most things I'd agree with you on this. But not medical care. The difference in knowledge base between the Patient and Doctor is just too great in many cases. And often when submitting yourself for medical treatment you're putting your life in their hands and they NEED to be competent. Even in the actual medical world there are screw ups and serious mistakes and misdiagnosis. Having it unregulated would only amplify that. You wanna go to a Quick Tax Fast Money place to get your taxes done... have at it. You might get screwed in an audit but that's your choice. Unlicensed medical practitioners are illegal for a reason. It can seriously hurt people or even kill them.

(Actually new regulations have been passed to prevent unqualified people from preparing taxes as well. They are now required to take a test every 3 years and have continuing education every year. But the quals are a joke so there are still gonna be a lot of numb skulls out there preparing taxes.)

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I said fraud should be illegal.
Because it puts people at risk unknowingly right? Well so do unlicensed medical practitioners. You got some guy giving you a story about a lump you've found, he says it's just a mass and can be removed right there in the office and everything will be fine. You don't know any better... you're not a doctor. You figure he's good to go. Turns out two years later it was cancer. Maybe you could have been saved maybe not but now you're going to die because you were given false assurance. The risk is too high with medical care. And that's not to say you can't be given false assurance at a real Doctor. But there has to be a line of WHO is allowed to practice in certain fields.

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In a free market, business that make these serious mistakes would fail very quickly.
Sure, so they move to a new town and put other people at risk. There are horrible people out there man. Sometimes you just gotta go get them.


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Are you under the impression that regulation doesn't kill anyone?
Of course not. Over-regulation can be just as dangerous as under-regulation.

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I know. I've said many times both here and in GTPI that I'm libertarian almost to the point of being anarchist.
I can appreciate your overall view. I've said often I can get on board with some Libertarian concepts. And I agree more freedom is better. But we draw the line at different places. When a professional's mistake can get you killed... there needs to be some structure there. Some kind of regulation to ensure at least a basic standard of confidence.

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No. I do believe in laws on age of consent. Children many times do not understand the consequences of decisions that they make.
And often people don't understand the consequences of unqualified medical care. The knowledge gap is too great in many cases. If you're dealing with a cold... whatever... no big deal. You start talking serious infections, blood poisoning, growths, tumors, heart issues, diabetes, genetic issues... I personally feel the risk is to great to go unregulated.

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Hey no problem man, I misread one of your posts and was trying to figure out if you were calling me a troll.
No way... it's all good.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:37   #272
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Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
I see the problem. You assume that "theory" means just a guess. You should study up on how scientists use the term "theory".

Just out of curiosity, and to get a better idea of where you stand, do you believe that we share a common ancestor with modern day apes? Do you believe that the big bang theory is backed by better evidence than any creationist ideas?
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:42   #273
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You ignore the plethora of unexplainable phenomena.
Do you mean unexplained rather than unexplainable phenomena? I'm not sure how you conclude which phenomena will never be explained by science. Science will have an answer for everything eventually. It has a great track record.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:43   #274
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This is the only real issue I have with that post. Atheists have NOT decided what to believe. They only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in dieties.

For example, I don't have the belief that aliens "planted" life on this planet. However, if I did, that would still be consistent with being atheistic.
Are you really sure about that? I mean really sure, to the point of arduous belief?

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Old 01-19-2013, 16:47   #275
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Here we go again... same old nonsense... different day and member.
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