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Old 01-19-2013, 12:08   #261
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
What is another word for supernatural? I think magic fits, no? The idea of "God" certainly seems supernatural to me. An omnipotent, omnipresent being that created everything around us. Sounds pretty magical to me.

Science couldn't explain why we got sick if we didn't wash our hands after we pooped, once upon a time. It didn't mean that "God" was mad at us for something.

So, we're right back to my original point - just because science can't explain something *yet* doesn't mean that "God" did it.
I didn't say it did. The other side of this argument wants to reject that possibility.

So that you know where I'm coming from. I think people who accept a literal interpretation of Biblical creation are fools.

Clearer now?
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Old 01-19-2013, 13:59   #262
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
...An agnostic atheist doesn't make as much sense to me, because the atheist has decided on what to believe...
This is the only real issue I have with that post. Atheists have NOT decided what to believe. They only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in dieties.

For example, I don't have the belief that aliens "planted" life on this planet. However, if I did, that would still be consistent with being atheistic.
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Old 01-19-2013, 14:02   #263
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I didn't say it did. The other side of this argument wants to reject that possibility.

So that you know where I'm coming from. I think people who accept a literal interpretation of Biblical creation are fools.

Clearer now?

Yes, thank you. Your original post made it read as though you were in the "if science can't explain it, God did it" camp, to me at least.

I apologize if I was reading too much into your posts.

I don't want to reject any premise, actively. I just think it's foolish to give credence to any theory that has absolutely zero physical evidence to back it up.
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Old 01-19-2013, 14:37   #264
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
That's my point actually. 2 possibilities. No answers. Those rejecting supernatural are closed minded.

And I'm not even talking about how life started. I'm more focuses on how it is started every day
What do you mean by "how it is started everyday"? It started once and has perpetuated every day since then.

I don't reject the supernatural. I just assign it a very low probability since it's basically just a theory with no supporting evidence. I don't like people claiming that life not having been created by humans at this point in history somehow suggests that it's an insurmountable problem which points to the probability of a supernatural involvement.

That would suggest that the next big breakthrough in battery chemistry is supernatural because we haven't made it work as of this moment. This is nothing more than going with the theory that has the most supporting evidence behind it as we do in all other aspects of science.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:14   #265
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
That's my point actually. 2 possibilities. No answers. Those rejecting supernatural are closed minded.
No, those dismissing the supernatural are relying on the number of times something supernatural has been 1. Proven and 2. Proven to be the cause of anything in nature. Both are a big fat goose egg. If there were evidence of supernatural events occurring then the rational thinkers among us might just consider the possibility. But at this point... no such evidence exists... just a bunch of stories, myths, and legends. Until such a time there is simply no need to consider supernatural causes. There's no reason to consider that magic elves created life on this planet. Why? Because there is no evidence that magic elves exist let alone have ever done anything ever.

You are correct the final answer still evades us. But we have mountains of evidence that these things occur naturally in hand A and absolutely ZERO evidence that these things occur supernaturally in hand B. So, safe odds are to go with what keeps producing testable and verifiable data... Hand A.

Religion and the supernatural tell us nothing. Because they are created by men that knew nothing of the natural world. Garbage in... Garbage out.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:14   #266
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
What do you mean by "how it is started everyday"? It started once and has perpetuated every day since then.

I don't reject the supernatural. I just assign it a very low probability since it's basically just a theory with no supporting evidence. I don't like people claiming that life not having been created by humans at this point in history somehow suggests that it's an insurmountable problem which points to the probability of a supernatural involvement.

That would suggest that the next big breakthrough in battery chemistry is supernatural because we haven't made it work as of this moment. This is nothing more than going with the theory that has the most supporting evidence behind it as we do in all other aspects of science.
Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:16   #267
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
I don't like people claiming that life not having been created by humans at this point in history somehow suggests that it's an insurmountable problem which points to the probability of a supernatural involvement.
The fact that we're as close as we are just shows it doesn't take a God... or that if it did... God isn't much more "Supreme" than we are.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:16   #268
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
No, those dismissing the supernatural are relying on the number of times something supernatural has been 1. Proven and 2. Proven to be the cause of anything in nature. Both are a big fat goose egg. If there were evidence of supernatural events occurring then the rational thinkers among us might just consider the possibility. But at this point... no such evidence exists... just a bunch of stories, myths, and legends. Until such a time there is simply no need to consider supernatural causes. There's no reason to consider that magic elves created life on this planet. Why? Because there is no evidence that magic elves exist let alone have ever done anything ever.

You are correct the final answer still evades us. But we have mountains of evidence that these things occur naturally in hand A and absolutely ZERO evidence that these things occur supernaturally in hand B. So, safe odds are to go with what keeps producing testable and verifiable data... Hand A.

Religion and the supernatural tell us nothing. Because they are created by men that knew nothing of the natural world. Garbage in... Garbage out.
You ignore the plethora of unexplainable phenomena.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:17   #269
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You ignore the plethora of unexplainable phenomena.
No... it's just unexplained. You're the one assuming it must be supernatural. It's just unexplained. But we'll get there. And the methods that have been working great for us in science will ultimately get it done.

God has fewer and fewer gaps to hide in everyday.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:21   #270
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
Life isn't nothing. We did start in a puddle of goo... but we are a creation of nature.

There was a time scientists couldn't figure out a way to make man fly. We tried it for centuries and mostly always failed. But eventually we gained the knowledge and do it daily now. I don't understand why you think that because we can't explain it right now this very second that must mean it's supernatural in nature.
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:03   #271
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You are right, my mistake. Lets say they display their license, with a sign next to it explaining that it has been revoked and why.
That's still illegal.

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I will answer this question, but only after you answer the question I've been trying to get you to answer.
Doesn't have to end in death. We have non-lethal means now of taking people into custody. Tear gas and tasers. Now if they take up a weapon and start shooting... then you gotta drop them.

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But it is a voluntary exchange. I said fraud should be illegal. If a patient wants to take a chance on medical care by someone less qualified, that is their choice.
With most things I'd agree with you on this. But not medical care. The difference in knowledge base between the Patient and Doctor is just too great in many cases. And often when submitting yourself for medical treatment you're putting your life in their hands and they NEED to be competent. Even in the actual medical world there are screw ups and serious mistakes and misdiagnosis. Having it unregulated would only amplify that. You wanna go to a Quick Tax Fast Money place to get your taxes done... have at it. You might get screwed in an audit but that's your choice. Unlicensed medical practitioners are illegal for a reason. It can seriously hurt people or even kill them.

(Actually new regulations have been passed to prevent unqualified people from preparing taxes as well. They are now required to take a test every 3 years and have continuing education every year. But the quals are a joke so there are still gonna be a lot of numb skulls out there preparing taxes.)

Quote:
I said fraud should be illegal.
Because it puts people at risk unknowingly right? Well so do unlicensed medical practitioners. You got some guy giving you a story about a lump you've found, he says it's just a mass and can be removed right there in the office and everything will be fine. You don't know any better... you're not a doctor. You figure he's good to go. Turns out two years later it was cancer. Maybe you could have been saved maybe not but now you're going to die because you were given false assurance. The risk is too high with medical care. And that's not to say you can't be given false assurance at a real Doctor. But there has to be a line of WHO is allowed to practice in certain fields.

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In a free market, business that make these serious mistakes would fail very quickly.
Sure, so they move to a new town and put other people at risk. There are horrible people out there man. Sometimes you just gotta go get them.


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Are you under the impression that regulation doesn't kill anyone?
Of course not. Over-regulation can be just as dangerous as under-regulation.

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I know. I've said many times both here and in GTPI that I'm libertarian almost to the point of being anarchist.
I can appreciate your overall view. I've said often I can get on board with some Libertarian concepts. And I agree more freedom is better. But we draw the line at different places. When a professional's mistake can get you killed... there needs to be some structure there. Some kind of regulation to ensure at least a basic standard of confidence.

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No. I do believe in laws on age of consent. Children many times do not understand the consequences of decisions that they make.
And often people don't understand the consequences of unqualified medical care. The knowledge gap is too great in many cases. If you're dealing with a cold... whatever... no big deal. You start talking serious infections, blood poisoning, growths, tumors, heart issues, diabetes, genetic issues... I personally feel the risk is to great to go unregulated.

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Hey no problem man, I misread one of your posts and was trying to figure out if you were calling me a troll.
No way... it's all good.
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:37   #272
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
I see the problem. You assume that "theory" means just a guess. You should study up on how scientists use the term "theory".

Just out of curiosity, and to get a better idea of where you stand, do you believe that we share a common ancestor with modern day apes? Do you believe that the big bang theory is backed by better evidence than any creationist ideas?
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:42   #273
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You ignore the plethora of unexplainable phenomena.
Do you mean unexplained rather than unexplainable phenomena? I'm not sure how you conclude which phenomena will never be explained by science. Science will have an answer for everything eventually. It has a great track record.
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:43   #274
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This is the only real issue I have with that post. Atheists have NOT decided what to believe. They only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in dieties.

For example, I don't have the belief that aliens "planted" life on this planet. However, if I did, that would still be consistent with being atheistic.
Are you really sure about that? I mean really sure, to the point of arduous belief?

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Old 01-19-2013, 17:47   #275
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Here we go again... same old nonsense... different day and member.
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:48   #276
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Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
Life by pure chance or accident is a matter of faith. It would take a large amount of religious faith to believe that stuff like what it just happened by random occurrences.

It would also take a large amount of religious faith to absolutely believe that all of what is was designed by an intelligence.

Two sides of the same coin. A concept that is difficult for some, but not for all.
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:56   #277
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Here we go again... same old nonsense... different day and member.
Dude. Really? No one has been able to explain all of what is. It would take an overabundance of hubris to pretend that you know everything about everything that ever was.


But it is entirely possible that you have that amount of hubris.





How are you doing with that "daddy issue"?

I've noticed that a few other posters have tried to get you over it, but you are resistant to the point that it is an obviously traumatic and personality defining series of events for you.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-19-2013 at 18:00..
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Old 01-19-2013, 18:10   #278
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And once again, for the slow kids...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyle's_fallacy
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Old 01-19-2013, 20:35   #279
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Life by pure chance or accident is a matter of faith. It would take a large amount of religious faith to believe that stuff like what it just happened by random occurrences.

It would also take a large amount of religious faith to absolutely believe that all of what is was designed by an intelligence.

Two sides of the same coin. A concept that is difficult for some, but not for all.
I disagree. By inserting a hypothetical super spook creator into the mix to explain the origins life you have not explained the origin of life at all since the hypothetical super spook is presumably alive and self realized. All that accomplishes is kicking the can down the road.

It takes a great deal of commitment on your part to remain noncommital to the extent that you do. You will likely deny that but the way you ducked out of answering whether the science behind Boyle's Law or the anecdote about Balaam's talking donkey seemed more likely to have actually happened gives it away. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...2#post19825282

That question was not designed as a trick question Doc. Your job required training in life sciences and I suspect basic physics would have been a prerequisite to getting your degree as well. Hence I believe at least a passing familiarity with Boyle's law should not be considered an unreasonable expectation of you nor should the understanding that outside of Dr Doolittle and Bible type stories Donkeys really don't talk.
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Old 01-19-2013, 21:14   #280
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That question was not designed as a trick question Doc. Your job required training in life sciences and I suspect basic physics would have been a prerequisite to getting your degree as well. Hence I believe at least a passing familiarity with Boyle's law should not be considered an unreasonable expectation of you nor should the understanding that outside of Dr Doolittle and Bible type stories Donkeys really don't talk.
That's what I'm talking about right there. I can forgive those with no exposure to the scientific method whatsoever but when a man's job requires significant science education and he still doesn't get it I can only conclude intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say that Doc and I were both standing around when somebody got shot. I would have no idea what to do in that case and given his experience I would be happy to defer to his judgment and help any way I could by doing exactly what he told me. I assume this is the way he would prefer it.

But given the arguments he puts forth it stands to reason that he would consider any suggestion I may give as precisely as valid and likely to result in a not dead victim as anything he can come up with. Whatever is pulled from the asses of anybody that wants to take a guess is just as valid an "opinion" as the conclusion of those that study a field and practice what's been shown to work countless times and then expand on that knowledge.

I could just say, "Well Doc, you don't know how to save every person that catches a bullet do you? Why're you being so close minded? You should be willing to consider all the possibilities." and that should be good enough to earn me the right to be taken just as seriously an him by others that want to help.

Hmmm, Doc Gunhaver. Has a nice ring to it.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 01-19-2013 at 21:16..
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