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Old 01-19-2013, 16:48   #276
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.
Life by pure chance or accident is a matter of faith. It would take a large amount of religious faith to believe that stuff like what it just happened by random occurrences.

It would also take a large amount of religious faith to absolutely believe that all of what is was designed by an intelligence.

Two sides of the same coin. A concept that is difficult for some, but not for all.
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Old 01-19-2013, 16:56   #277
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Here we go again... same old nonsense... different day and member.
Dude. Really? No one has been able to explain all of what is. It would take an overabundance of hubris to pretend that you know everything about everything that ever was.


But it is entirely possible that you have that amount of hubris.





How are you doing with that "daddy issue"?

I've noticed that a few other posters have tried to get you over it, but you are resistant to the point that it is an obviously traumatic and personality defining series of events for you.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-19-2013 at 17:00..
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Old 01-19-2013, 17:10   #278
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And once again, for the slow kids...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyle's_fallacy
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Old 01-19-2013, 19:35   #279
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Life by pure chance or accident is a matter of faith. It would take a large amount of religious faith to believe that stuff like what it just happened by random occurrences.

It would also take a large amount of religious faith to absolutely believe that all of what is was designed by an intelligence.

Two sides of the same coin. A concept that is difficult for some, but not for all.
I disagree. By inserting a hypothetical super spook creator into the mix to explain the origins life you have not explained the origin of life at all since the hypothetical super spook is presumably alive and self realized. All that accomplishes is kicking the can down the road.

It takes a great deal of commitment on your part to remain noncommital to the extent that you do. You will likely deny that but the way you ducked out of answering whether the science behind Boyle's Law or the anecdote about Balaam's talking donkey seemed more likely to have actually happened gives it away. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...2#post19825282

That question was not designed as a trick question Doc. Your job required training in life sciences and I suspect basic physics would have been a prerequisite to getting your degree as well. Hence I believe at least a passing familiarity with Boyle's law should not be considered an unreasonable expectation of you nor should the understanding that outside of Dr Doolittle and Bible type stories Donkeys really don't talk.
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Old 01-19-2013, 20:14   #280
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Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post

That question was not designed as a trick question Doc. Your job required training in life sciences and I suspect basic physics would have been a prerequisite to getting your degree as well. Hence I believe at least a passing familiarity with Boyle's law should not be considered an unreasonable expectation of you nor should the understanding that outside of Dr Doolittle and Bible type stories Donkeys really don't talk.
That's what I'm talking about right there. I can forgive those with no exposure to the scientific method whatsoever but when a man's job requires significant science education and he still doesn't get it I can only conclude intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say that Doc and I were both standing around when somebody got shot. I would have no idea what to do in that case and given his experience I would be happy to defer to his judgment and help any way I could by doing exactly what he told me. I assume this is the way he would prefer it.

But given the arguments he puts forth it stands to reason that he would consider any suggestion I may give as precisely as valid and likely to result in a not dead victim as anything he can come up with. Whatever is pulled from the asses of anybody that wants to take a guess is just as valid an "opinion" as the conclusion of those that study a field and practice what's been shown to work countless times and then expand on that knowledge.

I could just say, "Well Doc, you don't know how to save every person that catches a bullet do you? Why're you being so close minded? You should be willing to consider all the possibilities." and that should be good enough to earn me the right to be taken just as seriously an him by others that want to help.

Hmmm, Doc Gunhaver. Has a nice ring to it.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 01-19-2013 at 20:16..
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Old 01-19-2013, 22:48   #281
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I disagree. By inserting a hypothetical super spook creator into the mix to explain the origins life you have not explained the origin of life at all since the hypothetical super spook is presumably alive and self realized. All that accomplishes is kicking the can down the road.

It takes a great deal of commitment on your part to remain noncommital to the extent that you do. You will likely deny that but the way you ducked out of answering whether the science behind Boyle's Law or the anecdote about Balaam's talking donkey seemed more likely to have actually happened gives it away. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...2#post19825282

That question was not designed as a trick question Doc. Your job required training in life sciences and I suspect basic physics would have been a prerequisite to getting your degree as well. Hence I believe at least a passing familiarity with Boyle's law should not be considered an unreasonable expectation of you nor should the understanding that outside of Dr Doolittle and Bible type stories Donkeys really don't talk.
I entered my medical training as an atheist. The complexity of a simple cell, and the complexity of the physiological pathways that are required to maintain homeostasis within a single cell, requiring relatively distant points within that cell all working in harmony, then cells making up complex organs that require positive and negative feedback loops and distant cooperation, and the symbiotic relationships among different organisms......

Intellectual honesty required me to admit that it is at least possible that there is a design to life, and therefore a designer. It's also possible that it all just happened. I consider it perfectly reasonable to admit that one does not know for sure what they don't know for sure.

It was a while later when I realized that some people need to believe they have it all figured out, and that belief required faith.... and on occasion, a little resistance to admit what they don't know.

It's not about donkeys, well, not only about them. If you have to oversimplify the question, maybe you aren't ready to hear the answer.
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Old 01-19-2013, 22:57   #282
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That's what I'm talking about right there. I can forgive those with no exposure to the scientific method whatsoever but when a man's job requires significant science education and he still doesn't get it I can only conclude intellectual dishonesty.

Let's say that Doc and I were both standing around when somebody got shot. I would have no idea what to do in that case and given his experience I would be happy to defer to his judgment and help any way I could by doing exactly what he told me. I assume this is the way he would prefer it.

But given the arguments he puts forth it stands to reason that he would consider any suggestion I may give as precisely as valid and likely to result in a not dead victim as anything he can come up with. Whatever is pulled from the asses of anybody that wants to take a guess is just as valid an "opinion" as the conclusion of those that study a field and practice what's been shown to work countless times and then expand on that knowledge.
GH, there are times to debate, and times to act. I have had people try to interject at a bad time, including shortly after someone was shot, or stabbed, or blown up, and I had to politely tell them, "I hear what you are saying, and I respect your input, but we are going to do this my way right now, and I'll explain why later. I need you to help me by......"

I had much better responses that way than simply trying to shout them down, even though I outranked them (most of the time) and that was an option, it was rarely the best option. You've never been much of a leader, have you?



Quote:
I could just say, "Well Doc, you don't know how to save every person that catches a bullet do you? Why're you being so close minded? You should be willing to consider all the possibilities." and that should be good enough to earn me the right to be taken just as seriously an him by others that want to help.

Hmmm, Doc Gunhaver. Has a nice ring to it.
I think you said it best when you said "the wrong hands".

If you can't understand the differences between times where debate and action are appropriate, it may be another one of those times when it is late in the day and you have been over-practicing your freedoms again.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-19-2013 at 23:04..
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Old 01-19-2013, 23:00   #283
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That's still illegal.
...
But it's not fraud.

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...
Doesn't have to end in death. We have non-lethal means now of taking people into custody. Tear gas and tasers. Now if they take up a weapon and start shooting... then you gotta drop them.
...
So you would send men with guns to use whatever force required, up to and including death, to stop someone from practicing medicine whos license you've revoked for posting online?

I was really hoping to change your mind before you actually said that. That's pretty depressing. I don't really know where to go from here.

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...
With most things I'd agree with you on this. But not medical care. The difference in knowledge base between the Patient and Doctor is just too great in many cases. And often when submitting yourself for medical treatment you're putting your life in their hands and they NEED to be competent. Even in the actual medical world there are screw ups and serious mistakes and misdiagnosis. Having it unregulated would only amplify that. You wanna go to a Quick Tax Fast Money place to get your taxes done... have at it. You might get screwed in an audit but that's your choice. Unlicensed medical practitioners are illegal for a reason. It can seriously hurt people or even kill them.

(Actually new regulations have been passed to prevent unqualified people from preparing taxes as well. They are now required to take a test every 3 years and have continuing education every year. But the quals are a joke so there are still gonna be a lot of numb skulls out there preparing taxes.)


Because it puts people at risk unknowingly right? Well so do unlicensed medical practitioners. You got some guy giving you a story about a lump you've found, he says it's just a mass and can be removed right there in the office and everything will be fine. You don't know any better... you're not a doctor. You figure he's good to go. Turns out two years later it was cancer. Maybe you could have been saved maybe not but now you're going to die because you were given false assurance. The risk is too high with medical care. And that's not to say you can't be given false assurance at a real Doctor. But there has to be a line of WHO is allowed to practice in certain fields.
...
So you NEED to chose someone who is competent. See what degree they have and from what school. See if the school has a good record of educating people in that position. See what kind of insurance they have. A very large insurance policy would be very good, because the insurance company has a huge incentive to make sure they are qualified.

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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
...
Sure, so they move to a new town and put other people at risk. There are horrible people out there man. Sometimes you just gotta go get them.
...
How are they going to buy insurance? Who is going to use them when they don't have any insurance and won't provide references?

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...
Of course not. Over-regulation can be just as dangerous as under-regulation.
...
I'm glad you see that.

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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
...
I can appreciate your overall view. I've said often I can get on board with some Libertarian concepts. And I agree more freedom is better. But we draw the line at different places. When a professional's mistake can get you killed... there needs to be some structure there. Some kind of regulation to ensure at least a basic standard of confidence.
...
I think the need is to chose the right professional.

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...
And often people don't understand the consequences of unqualified medical care. The knowledge gap is too great in many cases. If you're dealing with a cold... whatever... no big deal. You start talking serious infections, blood poisoning, growths, tumors, heart issues, diabetes, genetic issues... I personally feel the risk is to great to go unregulated.



No way... it's all good.
It's been an interesting discussion, even if it didn't end how I had hoped.
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Old 01-20-2013, 00:23   #284
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I entered my medical training as an atheist. The complexity of a simple cell, and the complexity of the physiological pathways that are required to maintain homeostasis within a single cell, requiring relatively distant points within that cell all working in harmony, then cells making up complex organs that require positive and negative feedback loops and distant cooperation, and the symbiotic relationships among different organisms......

Intellectual honesty required me to admit that it is at least possible that there is a design to life, and therefore a designer. It's also possible that it all just happened. I consider it perfectly reasonable to admit that one does not know for sure what they don't know for sure.

It was a while later when I realized that some people need to believe they have it all figured out, and that belief required faith.... and on occasion, a little resistance to admit what they don't know.
Well if you did not know for sure you had the option to say so as a direct answer. For example Gee I am not sure that donkeys don't talk therefore I will give the anecdote about Balaam's donkey equal credibility with the likely hood that Boyle actually did the experiments that he claimed.
Quote:
It's not about donkeys, well, not only about them.
And I never made any claim that it is all about donkeys. I simply asked you a rather easy question that you made a point of not answering.
Quote:
If you have to oversimplify the question, maybe you aren't ready to hear the answer.
You already sidestepped the question almost two weeks ago. The time for the Master Po to Caine homily has passed.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:00   #285
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Have to admit, I've never studied talking donkeys, had a conversation or two with a jackass online though, present company excluded. Had to google this balaam fellow, It's been a while since I went to bible school. I think I see the idea you are trying to get at, correct me if I am wrong. Did the guy's donkey talk? Hell if I know. Sounds doubtful. Same with fairies, dragons, mermaids. Is it very possible that a talking donkey has never existed? Why worry about it? All that is could easily be here with none of those creatures having ever existed. But when we are talking about the origins of life, there was a beginning, and it was either a random natural phenomena, something created from scratch, or maybe something that just needed a little push to get going. We are here, and how we got here is a rather profound thing. It's a question that it would be nice to know the answer too, and a lot of people have very strong beliefs about how we got here, some to the point that considering the other possibilities is very discomforting to them.

Some way, some how, there was a beginning to life on earth, and even a beginning of the earth itself. Talking donkeys won't change that whether or not a donkey has talked or not.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:11   #286
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Life from nothing is nothing more than a theory. Those conditions can be replicated in a lab, yet scientists haven't been able to replicate the result.

Because science hasn't had the opportunity to replicate the conditions billions and billions of times, yet. No one is saying it's a sure thing, but given enough iterations even the most unlikely thing will eventually happen. Monkeys, typewriters and a sonnet....
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:12   #287
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...How are you doing with that "daddy issue"?

I've noticed that a few other posters have tried to get you over it, but you are resistant to the point that it is an obviously traumatic and personality defining series of events for you.
Dude, and you chastise OTHERS for ad hominem attacks?

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Old 01-20-2013, 14:23   #288
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Dude, and you chastise OTHERS for ad hominem attacks?

I do tend to respond in kind once in a while. I do try to forgive and forget after a while, and give several second chances and start overs.

I am certain that I have never claimed to be a saint. I do get a bit more harsh than is necessary on occasion, that may have been one of those times.

I will try to do better. In the interest of an interesting exercise, I'll try to stop right here and now and give everyone a clean slate, no ad homs except in return.

To be honest, it's more fun when we stick to the topic.
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Old 01-20-2013, 15:17   #289
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But it's not fraud.
Yet still illegal.

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So you would send men with guns to use whatever force required, up to and including death, to stop someone from practicing medicine whos license you've revoked for posting online?
No, they would with their persistent refusal to follow the law. We're talking about hypothetical in the first place but let's walk it through. The individual has their license revoked and are fined for unprofessional conduct... conduct they knew would result in such revocation and penalties. This is their choice... their doing. To now practice medicine for them is not legal because they aren't properly licensed. They refuse to accept the consequences of their choice and CHOOSE to illegally practice medicine without a license and refuse to pay the fine. Also their choice. They had the choice to comply with the laws and regulations under which they were licensed and chose not to. The fire that ultimately comes down upon them is a consequence of their choices.

Quote:
I was really hoping to change your mind before you actually said that. That's pretty depressing. I don't really know where to go from here.
Not everyone agrees that a society should operate on the edge of anarchy. I like a little regulation with people that could kill me with their mistakes. I think their should be stricter qualifiers for law enforcement officers as well.

Quote:
So you NEED to chose someone who is competent. See what degree they have and from what school. See if the school has a good record of educating people in that position. See what kind of insurance they have. A very large insurance policy would be very good, because the insurance company has a huge incentive to make sure they are qualified.
Not everyone is as bright as you and I. I mean be realistic... some people are just stupid. It's not fair that they should risk their lives for being suckered in by illegal medical practitioners.

Quote:
How are they going to buy insurance? Who is going to use them when they don't have any insurance and won't provide references?
Why would they even need insurance? They're not licensed, why bother being insured? Like I said, some people aren't very bright.


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I think the need is to chose the right professional.
Sure, but what about the people that make the wrong choice? They deserve to die for it? Why are you fine risking their lives and not the outlaw's?
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Old 01-20-2013, 15:26   #290
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Religious Issues

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Old 01-20-2013, 15:42   #291
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I see the problem. You assume that "theory" means just a guess. You should study up on how scientists use the term "theory".

Just out of curiosity, and to get a better idea of where you stand, do you believe that we share a common ancestor with modern day apes? Do you believe that the big bang theory is backed by better evidence than any creationist ideas?
My degrees, only BS mind you, are in biology and chemistry.

Apes: not sure but likely

Big Band: not sure but evidence is pretty convincing

Side note: I find it interesting that you're using the word "believe" here in reference to these theories. Science isn't based on "beliefs"
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Old 01-20-2013, 17:00   #292
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My degrees, only BS mind you, are in biology and chemistry.

Apes: not sure but likely

Big Band: not sure but evidence is pretty convincing

Side note: I find it interesting that you're using the word "believe" here in reference to these theories. Science isn't based on "beliefs"
Public acceptance of science is absolutely based on beliefs. Discoveries are made but you can only get people to act on those discoveries if they "believe" those discoveries are true. I could argue with someone all day that 5+5=10 but if they refuse to believe that because some bible verse or political pundit that they would prefer to believe says otherwise then I can't help them. Their "belief" that it does not =10 will continue to negatively affect them and anyone they can convince otherwise. It will also negatively affect plenty who do believe that if the non-believers are great enough in number and have enough clout.

So you say that you're not sure about common ancestry with apes which means that you don't fully accept the conclusions of the many whom are far more knowledgeable on the subject than you. Being convinced enough that you don't try to dissuade others from believing it is all I'm concerned about. Anything beyond that is just a matter of how much you really want to understand it.

As for the Big Band, here's video evidence,

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Old 01-20-2013, 17:09   #293
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Public acceptance of science is absolutely based on beliefs. Discoveries are made but you can only get people to act on those discoveries if they "believe" those discoveries are true. I could argue with someone all day that 5+5=10 but if they refuse to believe that because some bible verse or political pundit that they would prefer to believe says otherwise then I can't help them. Their "belief" that it does not =10 will continue to negatively affect them and anyone they can convince otherwise. It will also negatively affect plenty who do believe that if the non-believers are great enough in number and have enough clout.

So you say that you're not sure about common ancestry with apes which means that you don't fully accept the conclusions of the many whom are far more knowledgeable on the subject than you. Being convinced enough that you don't try to dissuade others from believing it is all I'm concerned about. Anything beyond that is just a matter of how much you really want to understand it.

As for the Big Band, here's video evidence,

Swing - Best of The Big Bands (1/3) - YouTube

Any detailed modern English sworn affidavits from ancient scientists that witnessed apes evolving into either one of your parents? Eh? There's some cloudy gray area here if you will admit it.

Primates are similar. I get that, and it's OK with me. But, just for a second, let's pretend that whether or not they are similar, has just about nothing at all to do with the question of whether there was or was not a deity.

True, true, and unrelated. I'm finding an odd inability of applying cause and effect relationships among many of the religious left on my scale.
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Old 01-20-2013, 20:55   #294
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Public acceptance of science is absolutely based on beliefs. Discoveries are made but you can only get people to act on those discoveries if they "believe" those discoveries are true. I could argue with someone all day that 5+5=10 but if they refuse to believe that because some bible verse or political pundit that they would prefer to believe says otherwise then I can't help them. Their "belief" that it does not =10 will continue to negatively affect them and anyone they can convince otherwise. It will also negatively affect plenty who do believe that if the non-believers are great enough in number and have enough clout.

So you say that you're not sure about common ancestry with apes which means that you don't fully accept the conclusions of the many whom are far more knowledgeable on the subject than you. Being convinced enough that you don't try to dissuade others from believing it is all I'm concerned about. Anything beyond that is just a matter of how much you really want to understand it.

As for the Big Band, here's video evidence,

Swing - Best of The Big Bands (1/3) - YouTube
No sorry. I got bored reading through the gibberish. Science is based on fact and reproducibility, not belief. When you get into belief you're dealing with faith. People who believe in God deal in the same thing and in many cases have evidence to support their beliefs as well.

Sorry. You're closed-minded.
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Old 01-20-2013, 21:49   #295
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Yet still illegal.
...

I don't think it should be, but yeah, I agree that it is.


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...
No, they would with their persistent refusal to follow the law. We're talking about hypothetical in the first place but let's walk it through. The individual has their license revoked and are fined for unprofessional conduct... conduct they knew would result in such revocation and penalties. This is their choice... their doing. To now practice medicine for them is not legal because they aren't properly licensed. They refuse to accept the consequences of their choice and CHOOSE to illegally practice medicine without a license and refuse to pay the fine. Also their choice. They had the choice to comply with the laws and regulations under which they were licensed and chose not to. The fire that ultimately comes down upon them is a consequence of their choices.
...

They just want you to leave them alone. They have a service that they want to sell to customers who want to buy it. You want to stop them by any means necessary, by killing them if that's what it takes.


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...
Not everyone agrees that a society should operate on the edge of anarchy.
...

I know, unfortunately.


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
...
I like a little regulation with people that could kill me with their mistakes. I think their should be stricter qualifiers for law enforcement officers as well.
...

And I would like for people to take responsibility for themselves and do a little research before doing business with someone that could kill them with a mistake. I would like for you to not tell me I can't use someone because you don't trust them.

On law enforcement officers, if it were up to me, there would be so many fewer laws, fewer l.e.o.s would be necessary. There would be few if any victimless "crimes".


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
...
Not everyone is as bright as you and I. I mean be realistic... some people are just stupid. It's not fair that they should risk their lives for being suckered in by illegal medical practitioners.
...

It's not fair that they are not as bright, but that's not my fault.


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
...
Why would they even need insurance? They're not licensed, why bother being insured? Like I said, some people aren't very bright.
...

So they don't lose everything they own if they do mess up, and to not scare away customers.

I don't understand the question.

Why is a license any better then a degree from a school you trust anyway?


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...
Sure, but what about the people that make the wrong choice? They deserve to die for it? Why are you fine risking their lives and not the outlaw's?

I'm fine with them risking their own life. I am not fine with you risking the life of the so called outlaw.
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Old 01-20-2013, 22:45   #296
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Life by pure chance or accident is a matter of faith.

And who is saying it is "pure chance" or "accident", other than those who misrepresent the theory of evolution to begin with?

(In strict point of fact, the theory of evolution is not a statement about how life came into being)
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Old 01-21-2013, 00:32   #297
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Any detailed modern English sworn affidavits from ancient scientists that witnessed apes evolving into either one of your parents? Eh? There's some cloudy gray area here if you will admit it.

Primates are similar. I get that, and it's OK with me. But, just for a second, let's pretend that whether or not they are similar, has just about nothing at all to do with the question of whether there was or was not a deity.

True, true, and unrelated. I'm finding an odd inability of applying cause and effect relationships among many of the religious left on my scale.
Do you have any detailed modern English sworn affidavits from modern scientists saying that the demonstrated genetic relationship, not similarities, between members of the family Hominidae is absolute proof that deities do not and never have existed?

If not, can I ask why you'd make such a connection?
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:03   #298
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can I ask why you'd make such a connection?
His responses to my posts have gotten increasingly silly and non-sequitur since I've started successfully ignoring him. I think he's just trying to get me to break my pact with G36. He misses his troll buddies.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:04   #299
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And who is saying it is "pure chance" or "accident", other than those who misrepresent the theory of evolution to begin with?

(In strict point of fact, the theory of evolution is not a statement about how life came into being)
Well, there is a gradient of possibilities about how life began on earth. Somewhere in between random chance and carefully designed creation is probably the truth of it. Unless it arrived here from somewhere else.

There might be some other possibilities. What do you think.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:09   #300
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Do you have any detailed modern English sworn affidavits from modern scientists saying that the demonstrated genetic relationship, not similarities, between members of the family Hominidae is absolute proof that deities do not and never have existed?

If not, can I ask why you'd make such a connection?
Nope, but I do see a lot of people who seem to be arguing that evolution is happening, so therefore, your god does not exist, and therefore no gods exist.

That's, of course, a very simple paraphrasing of what the argument seems to be.
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