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Old 01-21-2013, 19:27   #1
Taterhead
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Link to Kaboom! Thread on Main Loading Page

None of us like to see this sort of thing, but a worthy reminder of what can go wrong.

Not a 10mm, but I thought it would be worth a link anyway in case you did not catch it on the other reloading page.

G21
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Likely double charge

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1466498

Last edited by Taterhead; 01-21-2013 at 19:29..
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Old 01-21-2013, 22:03   #2
MinervaDoe
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Bullseye loads use a frighteningly small amount of powder. It's pretty easy to double charge one. I prefer powders that overflow the cartridge when you overcharge (just in case I'm asleep at the wheel).
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:59   #3
Any Cal.
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So the question is... would have there have been less damage if he was using the factory barrel?

Kbs in the stock barrel don't look like that, at least that I have seen.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:04   #4
Any Cal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
Bullseye loads use a frighteningly small amount of powder. It's pretty easy to double charge one. I prefer powders that overflow the cartridge when you overcharge (just in case I'm asleep at the wheel).
It isn't quite that bad, B'eye is twice as fluffy as #9, so it isn't like you only have a few flakes in the bottom of the case. Even 3g fills most any case partway up.

In any case, if you mix it with other powders you end up using larger amounts of it, so double charges are less likely.




















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Old 01-22-2013, 12:58   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
As usual, something's funny, and all I can do is check to see if I need a shower or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
So the question is... would have there have been less damage if he was using the factory barrel?

Kbs in the stock barrel don't look like that, at least that I have seen.
Aftermarket parts always make for uncertain test results. Now, how many mystery variables do we have?
1) How much powder was used.
2) KKM barrel vs. factory barrel
3)
4) The applied physics implications of chaos theory
5) Temperature
6) Altitude
7) Powder batch

My only experiences with kabooms in a Glock left the gun functional, and my hand stinging for months. Note the load listed at the link below is not advisable to use. It is from an old Speer manual and is nearly a grain higher than anything I can find in a modern manual.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_0874.jpg

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Old 01-22-2013, 17:19   #6
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MinervaDoe, those are some serious blow outs!

Wow, I've used 8.2 grains of Blue Dot in my 9mm under the 125 grain JHP's, as fired from a Ruger P-85...

I load mostly Power Pistol now in the 9mm stuff...


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Old 01-22-2013, 19:14   #7
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In my experience of reloading ( 25+ years ) I have always tried to use a powder that filled the case as much as possible. This accomplishes two thing. 1) Reduced risk of a double charge. A double charge would over flow the case and tip off of an error. 2) Reduced "dead" space in the case. The less "dead" space translates into more energy. The burning powder has less room to expand before pushing the projectile. Consult the specs on the case and see how many grains of water the case is designed to hold and select the powder accordingly. Ralph
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Old 01-22-2013, 20:54   #8
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Well, looks like that load got a nice clean burn! (Partly joking, but it must take pretty high pressure for Bullseye to burn that clean.)

I load 200gr SWC's over 4-4.5gr Bullseye often in my 45, and just a couple weekends ago pulled down 150 of them after wondering if I double charged one. That was a pain, but better safe than sorry.
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Old 01-22-2013, 21:31   #9
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The way that barrel pealed back kind of reminds me of how CanyonMan's barrel Kaboomed a few years ago. That was a stock barrel that he had purchased second hand. Win Silvertip factory round on that. Did any of you catch CanyonMan's thread on that. It has been 3-4 years.
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Old 01-22-2013, 22:22   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
MinervaDoe, those are some serious blow outs!

Wow, I've used 8.2 grains of Blue Dot in my 9mm under the 125 grain JHP's, as fired from a Ruger P-85...

I load mostly Power Pistol now in the 9mm stuff...

The load worked fine for me for years. Then, one night, the indoor range was venting in cold outdoor air (40 degrees) and the kaboom happened. I took the rest of my ammo home and dismantled and weighed their powder charges. The ones that I weighed were spot on. I figured, 1) hot Blue Dot load, 2) OLD BRASS, and 2) cold weather was just enough to push it over the edge.

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Old 01-23-2013, 10:12   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
The way that barrel pealed back kind of reminds me of how CanyonMan's barrel Kaboomed a few years ago. That was a stock barrel that he had purchased second hand. Win Silvertip factory round on that. Did any of you catch CanyonMan's thread on that. It has been 3-4 years.
Yes it was the start of our more personal conversations because I was studing KB's very closely...he shared his experience via personal e-mails as our friendship grew.

Quote:
MinervaDoe writes 1) hot Blue Dot load, 2) OLD BRASS, and 2) cold weather was
just enough to push it over the edge.
Do you think that the slide could have open early, allowing the casing to start the blow out with those 9's?

Old brass can contribute also as noted...sometimes chemicals can attack the brass on a molecular level such as ammonia.

There were warnings about cool temps and Blue Dot, however those temps were said to be at or below 0 degrees F.

If you still have the casings and barrel, with the barrel removed you could slide the cases back into the chamber to see if it exceeds the original head spacing, to indicate slide movement that increased the area of unsupport at the feed ramp.
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:46   #12
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Bullseye is great for a lot of applications. I have loaded and shot a lot of it in 9mm and 38spl, but not on a progressive press. I have to visually check the case fill before I start seating bullets, otherwise my nerves couldn't stand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
The load worked fine for me for years. Then, one night, the indoor range was venting in cold outdoor air (40 degrees) and the kaboom happened. I took the rest of my ammo home and dismantled and weighed their powder charges. The ones that I weighed were spot on. I figured, 1) hot Blue Dot load, 2) OLD BRASS, and 2) cold weather was just enough to push it over the edge.
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I had an interesting experience with Blue Dot last month, and would like to get your opinion on it. I recently ran my original 1lb can dry, but before I did, I wanted to chrony some test loads with the last of that lot to make sure the new lot was giving me the same performance. Mainly because my old lot seemed slow compared to numbers I have seen posted here (can't get a 180 to 1200fps with 11.0gr and standard primer), and I didn't want to try any of my existing load data with the new lot without first checking.

So, I loaded up some .40S&W loads with 150gr. Noslers, 5 of the old lot of BD and 5 of the new lot of BD. I hadn't shot this load, and was killing two birds with one stone, trying to get a starting point for some new .40 150gr. loads. I shot these out of my G20 with a LWD .40 conversion barrel on a day with temps in the mid 40's. Surprisingly, both loads were WAY hotter than I expected (by 55 to 120+ fps), but the 5 shot strings with the old lot averaged 67.6fps faster than the new lot. Same brass, same primers, same bullets, same OAL, loaded on the same dies within 20 minutes of each other. Only difference was old BD vs. new BD.

Anyway, it looks like the max load data for 10mm 180gr (11.0) was slow with the old lot. I haven't tried it yet with the new lot, but I expect it will be slower still. However, in 40S&W and 9mm, the old lot performed exceptionally well, exceeding the published data (slightly for the 9mm, radically for the .40S&W).

Are you guys also saying that BD is inverse temperature sensitive, too? Maybe because all my 10mm BD loads have been shot during warm weather, I don't know. But if that's the case, then I won't be doing anymore BD max load development unless the weather is cold out. I'm also beginning to wonder if the pressure in Blue Dot loads starts to increase in a non-linear fashion as the charge is increased.

Anyway, I really like the performance that Blue Dot gives with certain loads (7.9gr under a 124 JHP 9mm ran 1227fps from a 5" barrel), but my confidence is a little shaky using it near max loads now, based on what I've experienced lately and now this KB info from MinervaDoe. I'm thinking of dropping that 7.9gr/124gr 9mm load from my "good loads" list.
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Old 01-23-2013, 19:42   #13
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I have heard of, but not personally witnessed, temp inverse sensitivity with Blue Dot. I have used more pounds of BD than any other 10mm powder by far.

I shot load workups with a 180 XTP up to a max charge in about 12F temps. Velocities were faster when tested in warmer temperatures (90F+).

Pressures do increase in a non-linear fashion, but that is true of all powders. The pressure curve gets steeper with increased charges.

One thing to consider if velocities were way out of line. No powder has given my chronograph fits like Blue Dot. I have to get WAY back or I get readings that don't "track." They are usually higher than expected with high spreads on velocity. Also, my chronograph wants a pretty full battery too.

I would be inclined to consider potential chronograph errors first before concluding that Blue Dot is that severely reverse temperature sensitive. 40F is not really that cold.

Any rate, just a thought.
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Old 01-23-2013, 20:35   #14
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Tatehead, I concur with what your saying, after several 1 pound cans of Blue Dot, I started buying Blue Dot in 5 pound canisters, the first 2 were "Hurcules and the third I'm about half way thru is Alliant plastic jug.

I agree with the CHRONY also needing some distance. I just tested some 20 year old 44 Mags against some loaded with the newest jug of Blue Dot, they were spot on with each other and adv were equal. All loads were hand weighed to match grade.
I shared some of my loads to a friend and he showed the velocitys to be consistant from his gun and chrony.

Blue Dot remains one of my main stay powders to this day!
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Old 01-23-2013, 21:38   #15
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In my looking on BD inverse sensitivity, it appears that in very cold conditions the granules fracture, making them smaller and removing any coating on one side of the kernel, both of which contribute to a faster burn rate. It seems like the process is irreversible, so once the powder had been exposed to extreme cold, it would be a faster powder regardleess of temp. Might make a good experiment to put a few rounds in the freezer overnight, then chrono those that had never been frozen, those frozen and thawed, and those that were still cold.

I have read of many who never noticed a difference, some who got low pressures in the heat, and some who got high pressures in the cold. It seems like the temp sensitivity was below 0*f though, so not likly for many people to hit it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:43   #16
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Thanks for all the responses, guys. Some interesting things here to consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
One thing to consider if velocities were way out of line. No powder has given my chronograph fits like Blue Dot. I have to get WAY back or I get readings that don't "track." They are usually higher than expected with high spreads on velocity. Also, my chronograph wants a pretty full battery too.

I would be inclined to consider potential chronograph errors first before concluding that Blue Dot is that severely reverse temperature sensitive. 40F is not really that cold.

Any rate, just a thought.
Well, I have serious misgivings about trusting my Shooting Chrony. I have noticed several problems over the years, mainly a lot of missed shots when the battery starts to wear down. This is a big flaw, IMO, of the Shooting Chrony brand. If you have ever wondered how the voltage in a battery decreases as it wears down, look at the last page of this datasheet http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/522.pdf A 9V battery isn't actually 9V for most of it's serviceable life. So I fixed that by adding a DC-DC SEPIC converter between my 9V battery and my Shooting Chrony that guarantees a constant regulated 9V at the Shooting Chrony 9V input, even when the battery is only putting out 5V, and that has fixed much of the problem with lost shots.

The other issue is the optical sensors. I think that certain angles of sunlight hitting them sometimes can fool the sensor and miss a shot. And then finally, I honestly believe there is some kind of firmware bug in the microprocessor code that causes me to get 3000+fps velocities when I'm shooting 1100fps loads, and vice versa, once in a while. It keeps doing it unless I power off and power back on. That is really irritating. However, when it's working, in spite of the problems, I usually trust it. An occasional wild velocity is considered a bad reading, and I move on. But when I'm getting low standard deviations in 5 or 10 shot strings, I'm believing the data.

That being said, on this day, the old lot of BD 5 shot string ran an ES of 17 and a SD of 8.35. Same load with the new batch of BD ran ES of 39 and SD of 14.61. Plus, since I already had the Chrony up and running, I fired off a 10 shot string of my 175 LSWC Bullseye loads. That 10 shot string ran an ES of 40 and a SD of 11.61, and it clocked only 19fps faster than the same recipe (could have been different brass, I don't know) that I chronied 18 months ago. But the 175 LSWC's averaged 288fps slower than the BD 150's. So, looking at all of this data, I tend to believe that the numbers are correct. The Bullseye load tends to be smokey due to the cast bullet lube and Bullseye in general, but I didn't lose any shots or have any wild velocities in that 10 shot string. It was shot the same distance (8-10ft) from the Chrony as the BD loads were.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:23   #17
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In my looking on BD inverse sensitivity, it appears that in very cold conditions the granules fracture, making them smaller and removing any coating on one side of the kernel, both of which contribute to a faster burn rate. It seems like the process is irreversible, so once the powder had been exposed to extreme cold, it would be a faster powder regardleess of temp. Might make a good experiment to put a few rounds in the freezer overnight, then chrono those that had never been frozen, those frozen and thawed, and those that were still cold.
This would be an interesting experiment to try.

I have also wondered about what effect humidity absorption has on burn rates, velocity, pressure, etc. When I began handloading, I read everything I could on the subject, and I remember reading that powders are hygroscopic, which means that they absorb water from the air in the same way silica gel dessicants do. That's why it's not recommended that you leave powder in your powder measure and always keep a tight seal on your containers. I have, on occasion, forgot to return the little bit of powder I had in the powder trickler for a day or two, and dumped it back in the container anyway. Not a good practice, I know, but I'm a cheap bastard. So, what happens when a powder absorbs moisture? Does it run slower because it weighs more so you use less, or faster because it has the added expansion of the water vapor adding to pressure? Or maybe it's a zero sum process. I'm assuming that it could also lead to reliability problems if it gets exchanged to water vapor and re-absorbed during temperature cycling. Any thoughts on this?

The reason I ask is that this was the end of my first pound of BD, and it has been around for a while. I didn't leave it sit out, but the container has been opened and re-sealed a bunch of times, so it could have more H2O content than a freshly opened batch.
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