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Old 01-22-2013, 11:20   #341
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I know, really big numbers. Really big guesses too, with a lot of variances and a large margin of error too.

The possibilities are remote enough for either side to be completely sure, if they evaluate it all together. It's not a collection of just elements, but a collection of structures and data containing materials that interact remotely within a single cell, one small defect, one hole in the wrong place, one channel that pushes electrolytes in the wrong direction, and none of it works at all. And, once you got all that stuff together, making it in such a way that it could replicate itself, that's pretty remote too.
So you're agreeing that really unlikely things become, effectively, more likely when you repeat the scenario billions of times, right?



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However it started, it is rather amazing. It would be cool to know for sure, but it's not necessary to have a good day today.
Absolutely agreed with all three points above.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:00   #342
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So you're agreeing that really unlikely things become, effectively, more likely when you repeat the scenario billions of times, right?





Absolutely agreed with all three points above.
Not completely. I know this is a meme, but if you put a bunch of chimpanzees in a room with a typewriter, even for a trillion years, they will not type the complete works of Shakespeare, not as long as they are chimps as we know them today, unable to really get where Cesario was coming from emotionally.

ID vs. Unaided Natural Phenomena...... Honestly, both are difficult to have faith in for me. They are very remote in their own way.

It would be neat to find another civilization on another planet that would be willing to peacefully discuss the issue and share notes, as opposed to just eating us.

Religious Issues
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Old 01-22-2013, 18:25   #343
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The real sin is to give credit to a "god" for creating the earth. We are lucky to simply be here and some of us know it. Nowhere else will you find anything like earth.

The world is indeed a scary place and for many god is an outlet to escape reality. Its human nature to want more and to sit in your chair and think that this is as good as it gets isnt good enough for our minds so we wish for more and the bible delivers that.

I try not to take everyday for granted because I know that this earth is as good as it gets, every sunrise every day with my family is a special thing, enjoy life and reality and leave the magic in the book, do yourself a favor and discover what is!
Frankly the math disagrees with you very strongly


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Old 01-22-2013, 18:47   #344
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Frankly the math disagrees with you very strongly


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History is full of examples. Chance encounters are less likely than those with a motive, opportunity and ability.


The problem is that humans have motive to believe the way they do, and have a hard time evaluating the question without prejudice.
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Old 01-22-2013, 19:49   #345
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History is full of examples. Chance encounters are less likely than those with a motive, opportunity and ability.


The problem is that humans have motive to believe the way they do, and have a hard time evaluating the question without prejudice.
What I was saying is that mathematically there are likely to be many many earths out there.


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Old 01-22-2013, 21:52   #346
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Who is making that argument? Could you provide some specific examples?
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I know, really big numbers. Really big guesses too, with a lot of variances and a large margin of error too.

The possibilities are remote enough for either side to be completely sure, if they evaluate it all together. It's not a collection of just elements, but a collection of structures and data containing materials that interact remotely within a single cell, one small defect, one hole in the wrong place, one channel that pushes electrolytes in the wrong direction, and none of it works at all. And, once you got all that stuff together, making it in such a way that it could replicate itself, that's pretty remote too.

However it started, it is rather amazing. It would be cool to know for sure, but it's not necessary to have a good day today.
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That's one side of the coin. The other is that some people think they need to know. They guess in the other direction and then try to support their own beliefs to the exclusion of others.

That's ego too.

Why can't we just enjoy what is, and not worry about ensuring that everyone agrees with us?
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So you're agreeing that really unlikely things become, effectively, more likely when you repeat the scenario billions of times, right?





Absolutely agreed with all three points above.
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Not completely. I know this is a meme, but if you put a bunch of chimpanzees in a room with a typewriter, even for a trillion years, they will not type the complete works of Shakespeare, not as long as they are chimps as we know them today, unable to really get where Cesario was coming from emotionally.

ID vs. Unaided Natural Phenomena...... Honestly, both are difficult to have faith in for me. They are very remote in their own way.

It would be neat to find another civilization on another planet that would be willing to peacefully discuss the issue and share notes, as opposed to just eating us.

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History is full of examples. Chance encounters are less likely than those with a motive, opportunity and ability.


The problem is that humans have motive to believe the way they do, and have a hard time evaluating the question without prejudice.

These are the replies you've posted since my request. Should I take this to mean that the requested examples to substantiate your claim will not be forthcoming?
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Old 01-22-2013, 21:54   #347
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Frankly the math disagrees with you very strongly
I never skip a chance to post this.

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Old 01-22-2013, 22:14   #348
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Nice.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:19   #349
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These are the replies you've posted since my request. Should I take this to mean that the requested examples to substantiate your claim will not be forthcoming?
The next time I see that argument or one similar being made, I'll post a link for you.

ETA: is this one good enough?

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...88&postcount=8
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Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-23-2013 at 05:52..
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:25   #350
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I never skip a chance to post this.

Religious Issues
The odds I'm speaking of is not whether there are other planets similar to earth, or if that really necessary for life. We've found life in very inhospitable places on this planet.

Just the odds that all the structures compounds and organelles would come together and form an operating cell.

The very first cell in the universe had to have happened somehow though. I make no claim as to how that happened, but thinking about the possibilities is interesting. People that are absolutely sure they know how the first cellular life occurred are interesting too. Occasionally, once they choose sides between ID and random natural phenomena, they seem resistant to accept the other as possible.
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Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-23-2013 at 05:27..
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:47   #351
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The next time I see that argument or one similar being made, I'll post a link for you.
So post 292 wasn't implying what you claimed it was.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:49   #352
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The next time I see that argument or one similar being made, I'll post a link for you.
Your claim was
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Nope, but I do see a lot of people who seem to be arguing that evolution is happening, so therefore, your god does not exist, and therefore no gods exist.
Can you not produce one of these already existing examples so that we could discuss it?
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:50   #353
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So post 292 wasn't implying what you claimed it was.
That's a leap of faith you are making. 292 is one of gunhavers posts, isn't it?

Speaking of gunhaver, is this one good enough?


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I'm pointing out a new (to me) example of unintelligent design is all. For people who look around and see everything as a put together plan with a god behind it, I wonder why they think this great photosynthetic "design" only made it into 3 animals. It's like putting your best battery technology into a few things and using something far less efficient and far more polluting for everything else. Especially when you talk about that god being a loving and benevolent god, you'd think he'd make full use of a system that eliminates the need for critters to tear each other apart to survive.

Create a perfect energy system for life, place most life within easy reach of that energy system, create pain and suffering, make one group of the critters you create subject to pain and suffering by being required to search for possibly scarce second parties to tap into that energy source, make another group rely on inflicting pain and suffering on the first group to tap into that energy source, make this a continuous cycle.

It's like the laryngeal nerve or running a sewer through a playground twixt our legs. Not the best plan that could be designed.

Intelligent Design is Stupid: Neil deGrasse Tyson - YouTube
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:51   #354
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The odds I'm speaking of is not whether there are other planets similar to earth, or if that really necessary for life. We've found life in very inhospitable places on this planet.

Just the odds that all the structures compounds and organelles would come together and form an operating cell.

The very first cell in the universe had to have happened somehow though. I make no claim as to how that happened, but thinking about the possibilities is interesting. People that are absolutely sure they know how the first cellular life occurred are interesting too. Occasionally, once they choose sides between ID and random natural phenomena, they seem resistant to accept the other as possible.
Could you please cite any non-theist claiming to be absolutely sure they know how the first cellular life occurred?
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:58   #355
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That's a leap of faith you are making. 292 is one of gunhavers posts, isn't it?
A leap I'm making? You said "I do see a lot of people who seem to be arguing that evolution is happening, so therefore, your god does not exist, and therefore no gods exist." When I asked for an example, you said "Post 292 tap dances around the edges of it."

Did post 292 make "that argument or one similar" (your words) or not?
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:09   #356
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Speaking of gunhaver, is this one good enough?
Nope. Pointing out that bad design isn't evidence of deity isn't a claim that it demonstrates the nonexistence of deity.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:27   #357
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Nope. Pointing out that bad design isn't evidence of deity isn't a claim that it demonstrates the nonexistence of deity.
OK, you wait around long enough, and another good example will come along. It's only a matter of time and the odds, right?

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Old 01-23-2013, 06:29   #358
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Nope, but I do see a lot of people who seem to be arguing that evolution is happening, so therefore, your god does not exist, and therefore no gods exist.

That's, of course, a very simple paraphrasing of what the argument seems to be.
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OK, you wait around long enough, and another good example will come along. It's only a matter of time and the odds, right?

I grow ever more confused. You claimed that lots of people were making these arguments, implying they were fairly common. You've now offered two supposed examples, neither of which bears the slightest resemblance to the arguments you claim is commonly made.

Are you admitting that your original post was in error and the argument as you framed it is not common or were you being intentionally deceptive in your original post and assuming you wouldn't be asked to provide supporting examples?
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:32   #359
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A leap I'm making? You said "I do see a lot of people who seem to be arguing that evolution is happening, so therefore, your god does not exist, and therefore no gods exist." When I asked for an example, you said "Post 292 tap dances around the edges of it."

Did post 292 make "that argument or one similar" (your words) or not?
My words are in the quote. How exact and precise did you expect a phrase like "tap dances around the edges of it" to be? You're being hypersensitive again.

I couldn't a good tap dancing smiley. Please accept this one in lieu of a tap dancing smiley. Religious Issues
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:40   #360
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I grow ever more confused. You claimed that lots of people were making these arguments, implying they were fairly common. You've now offered two supposed examples, neither of which bears the slightest resemblance to the arguments you claim is commonly made.

Are you admitting that your original post was in error and the argument as you framed it is not common or were you being intentionally deceptive in your original post and assuming you wouldn't be asked to provide supporting examples?
I am starting to see the confusion. The statement is one of an appearance to another. Not an exact measurement. And, It does seem to me that Evolution has been used as some sort of evidence that creation can not be. If it doesn't seem that way to you, it's perfectly OK.

The claim that I was being deceptive by you is a thinly veiled attempt to send me on a homework errand for you. Given enough time, there will be plenty of examples that I may or may not drop a link in this thread for you, if I get around to it. Fair enough?
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