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Old 01-23-2013, 21:02   #21
domin8ss
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Okay. It seems this threat is off topic, so I'll try to bring it back in line. I'm a Utah resident, and Utah CFP holder. Imo, this law is a waste of time and energy. Utah is so pro gun that it almost makes sense to be constitutional carry. The current system does allow for daily checks. As it was explained to me, the current checks are done by BCI (Bureau of Criminal Investigations) and consist of nothing more than comparing the daily arrest records from Utah agencies to the list of CFP holders. Only 0.001% of the time do they get a match. So, to me it really seems redundant.

Also, this new piece of legislation states it would become violation to carry on school grounds. This will never happen even if the law did pass. Why? About 5-6 years ago the state supreme court ruled that because the state constitution very closely resembles the national constitution, schools that receive public funding cannot ban firearms on their premises.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:45   #22
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
I'm a big 2nd amendment supporter and favor almost no limits, but I do feel that most people who carry concealed are under trained and am torn. There is part of me that feels that there should be substantially more training and more stringent shooting/qualifying before a person should be allowed to carry concealed.
Tell you what, there are at least 19 states that require zero shooting test prior to issuing a CCW permit.
There are only slightly fewer states that require ZERO training at all (WA, AL, PA, DE, come to mind immediately) and more than that where a hunting safety course is all that is required before issuing a CCW permit.

If you can prove, by actual numbers from the state sites, that the states that require training have fewer bad shootings and/or fewer innocents shot, you may have a point.

Hell, I challenge you to tell which states require what kind or lack of training strictly by bad and/or illegal use of firearms by CCW holders.

I'm betting you've never really looked into it that far, you're just going on what you believe and feel is true. Problem is, your beliefs and feelings have no basis in reality. I'm serious, look it up for yourself and see if you can show anyone that CCW holders in any state have so many bad shoots that there is a good argument for more training required.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:47   #23
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Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
Soooooo .... what will happen to all of Utah reciprocity agreements with other states?

I have a Utah non-resident permit which gives me the right to carry in some states that my resident Colorado permit does not...........
They'll do the same thing other states have done, keep the permit system for those who want the reciprocity but not require the permit for instate carry.

Simple.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:30   #24
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Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
Tell you what, there are at least 19 states that require zero shooting test prior to issuing a CCW permit.
There are only slightly fewer states that require ZERO training at all (WA, AL, PA, DE, come to mind immediately) and more than that where a hunting safety course is all that is required before issuing a CCW permit.

If you can prove, by actual numbers from the state sites, that the states that require training have fewer bad shootings and/or fewer innocents shot, you may have a point.

Hell, I challenge you to tell which states require what kind or lack of training strictly by bad and/or illegal use of firearms by CCW holders.

I'm betting you've never really looked into it that far, you're just going on what you believe and feel is true. Problem is, your beliefs and feelings have no basis in reality. I'm serious, look it up for yourself and see if you can show anyone that CCW holders in any state have so many bad shoots that there is a good argument for more training required.
First, I made it very clear this is the way I "feel" because I and you and every gun owner has seen other gun owners that just make us cringe with their lack of safety, knowledge, etc.

Second, it's extremely difficult to get good, reliable numbers of gun related deaths (cause, type of weapon, etc.), and as you VERY WELL KNOW, it's just about impossible to get reliable accidental shooting/bad shooting information by state.

So, what you ask, as I believe you very well know, isn't possible to do.

What we do know is that a recent (a few years back) study showed that overall CCL holders commit gun crimes at the same rate as police, but beyond that, we don't know much, certainly not about accidents or good shoots/bad shoots.

While the other side (ant-gun/liberals) are completely unreasonable with their fear of guns and desire to ban them all, even if it takes a "path to single payer" approach, a lot of people on our side are not much better in their refusal to have any meaningful discussions.

On the one hand, we tout Heller as declaring the 2nd amendent guarantees the right to use a gun for self defense, which I am very glad about. However, we tend to ignore McDonald & Heller also declared that reasonable limits are acceptable. Some states have age limits, where you have to be 21 to get a CCL, as an example.

Anyway, I didn't expect my opinion on this to be popular, because most on our side are not interested in any open discussion about reasonable limits. Just look at the thread about the idiot CCL carrier in FL that got detained (maybe arrested) and it's a great example of the rage against the machine, cops suck, you can't infringe our rights single minded blindness that far too many of us have.

We should at least be open to discussions about how to make everyone safer, keep guns out of the hands (at least in public) of those that aren't qualified, discussing reasonable restrictions to try and make it more difficult for felons/criminals to get guns (I know that's not on topic for this thread, but an example of the things that are in OUR best interest, yet we don't want to talk about).
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:51   #25
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Put in the same context of any other right. Submit paperwork, take a test to exercise the right to free speech.
Should the back ground check be all you need to buy and carry a firearm?
Many questions but the second can not be seperated from all the other rights in how it is exercised.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:54   #26
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i hope it passes. every gun owner should want to improve skills, and practice more often, but it should be up to them, not laws that force it.

i am far more afraid of drivers in vehicles than under trained gun owners. drive around any city, the stupid abounds.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:39   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
I'm a big 2nd amendment supporter and favor almost no limits, but I do feel that most people who carry concealed are under trained and am torn. There is part of me that feels that there should be substantially more training and more stringent shooting/qualifying before a person should be allowed to carry concealed.
Do you think you should have training to exercise your other rights? Get a clue. The right to keep and bear = own and carry.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:16   #28
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Everyone should have the right to bear arms....that said I would be ok with open carry as the only means without a permit and having to qualify to conceal carry which would allow carry in any place that is still off limits as of now. Price point should be bare minimum to cover costs.


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Old 01-24-2013, 10:26   #29
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Good question. In the last couple years, AR expanded their reciprocity, so I haven't even bothered to renew my out of state Utah, which expired late last year.

Would seem like Utah reciprocity would go away, or possibly honor reciprocity with people still hold a non-expired Utah CCL. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.
ftnedator, you guys (that is AR) are doing something right. I just checked your reciprocity and it is fantastic. My non-resident UT gives me Washington and Ohio, which on occasion I need. My resident CO permit does not cover those states.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:44   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
Tell you what, there are at least 19 states that require zero shooting test prior to issuing a CCW permit.
There are only slightly fewer states that require ZERO training at all (WA, AL, PA, DE, come to mind immediately) and more than that where a hunting safety course is all that is required before issuing a CCW permit.

If you can prove, by actual numbers from the state sites, that the states that require training have fewer bad shootings and/or fewer innocents shot, you may have a point.

Hell, I challenge you to tell which states require what kind or lack of training strictly by bad and/or illegal use of firearms by CCW holders.

I'm betting you've never really looked into it that far, you're just going on what you believe and feel is true. Problem is, your beliefs and feelings have no basis in reality. I'm serious, look it up for yourself and see if you can show anyone that CCW holders in any state have so many bad shoots that there is a good argument for more training required.
EXACTLY!

Indiana has had concealed carry for longer than most of the 50 states, no training, no classes.. and frankly, it's just not really an issue that even makes a blip on the news. I remember a few years ago a guy dropped a "derringer" in a restaurant and it went off, and hit him in the hip.

Been a while since I've read about a CCW'er having an ND.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:46   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
First, I made it very clear this is the way I "feel" because I and you and every gun owner has seen other gun owners that just make us cringe with their lack of safety, knowledge, etc.
I've seen way more newspaper articles, editorials, and posts on DU that make me cringe with disbelief at someone's lack of knowledge... than I have uninformed gun owners.

I don't advocate permits for free speech.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:55   #32
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for all the other lib crazyness around. wa state only want some money before you get a permit. only $55.25.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:05   #33
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Originally Posted by ca survivor View Post
and with out a permit, how can a LEO differentiate for a law abiding citizen and a criminal with a gun?
Criminals carry anyway. The law just makes honest people jump through hoops. Say a cop pulls someone over, he is going to find out if they have a record or not regardless of if they show him a permit or not.
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Old 01-24-2013, 15:16   #34
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Originally Posted by domin8ss View Post
First paragraph true. Not touching the second. Third is false. 6 rounds at 10 feet. I took the class on 7/3/12 in Salt Lake.
Utah does not, by law, require live fire. This doesn't mean that instructors can't include live fire as part of their curriculum.
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Old 01-24-2013, 16:00   #35
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Great. Hope it passes.

Personal responsibility and accountability are key.

To speak, one should learn to speak well.
To vote, one should research candidates and vote responsibly.
For self defense, one should seek training.

But, no natural right should have conditions on them. The more we replace individual accountability with government requirements, the weaker we become.
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Old 01-24-2013, 16:48   #36
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Utah does not, by law, require live fire. This doesn't mean that instructors can't include live fire as part of their curriculum.
This is correct. Many instructors include live fire at their own discretion. It is not required by law. The Utah class just covers the legalities of having a permit. I even know a blind man with one.
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Old 01-24-2013, 17:36   #37
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I hope Constitutional Carry passes in Utah, to come in line with Arizona.
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Old 01-24-2013, 17:40   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
I'm a big 2nd amendment supporter and favor almost no limits, but I do feel that most people who carry concealed are under trained and am torn. There is part of me that feels that there should be substantially more training and more stringent shooting/qualifying before a person should be allowed to carry concealed.
I am sorry but that is suggesting that we ask the government for permission slips to exercise our rights. THe moment when we decided that a permit system would need to be in place is when we decided that the 2nd Amendment is not truly a natural right. And to that I quote the great Samuel Adams, as a permit system is nothing but a tax on our rights.

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"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
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Old 01-24-2013, 17:45   #39
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More than once I've seen idiots at a range almost shoot others. Not the kind I would want to carry a gun without formal training. These are the type of morons who would pull it out to show someone and not unload it first.

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Old 01-24-2013, 20:01   #40
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ftnedator, you guys (that is AR) are doing something right. I just checked your reciprocity and it is fantastic. My non-resident UT gives me Washington and Ohio, which on occasion I need. My resident CO permit does not cover those states.
Yea, a few years back our reciprocal states ballooned. It's handy.

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