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Old 01-30-2013, 11:11   #1
wprebeck
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News guaranteed to make your head spin

This story contains the following:

Evil union employees
Law enforcement officers
Guns


So, read at your own risk.






Well, the event that I was told would never happen (even though it is happening more and more frequently across the country), occurred last night.

I was at our monthly FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) meeting, when the subject of the pending AWB legislation was broached. It seems that, in 1994, the National Lodge supported the ban. Oops.

We were informed last night that a number of lodges from around the country are now sending letters to the National President, urging him to support the 2nd Amendment, and the right of people to bear arms - and to NOT support any further gun control laws. We were also asked to decide, as a group, whether or not to join in this practice.

Not a single person disagreed with supporting citizens. Hell, the President of my lodge is a CCDW instructor, and many of the board members are "gun nuts" (I am, as well - just not a board member).

So, the third largest FOP lodge in the state of Kentucky just voted to send a letter to the National President urging him to NOT SUPPORT gun control laws.

Yep. We, the evil union members who wear jackboots, are on your side. And, the numbers of us who are speaking out publicly are growing, as evidenced by numerous threads in this very forum.

So, please keep this in mind before going off on a hate filled spree against LE, mmkay? We really "are" on your side - and pensions don't much matter to most of us, when it comes time to do the right thing. I have been repeatedly assured that is NOT the case, but the odd thing is: none of those doing the mouth running are cops - and ALL of the ones I've talked to who say they will NOT take guns...are cops.

Hmm...who to believe?
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:32   #2
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With all due respect, sir.

No despotic power has ever found a shortage of government employees willing to enforce whatever oppressive policies such a government deems desirable to retain and increase their rule.

I understand that you feel the need to defend your fraternity as composed of individuals of character, but exhortation and fine speeches do little to ease the fear of those of us potentially under your symbolic jack boot.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:36   #3
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I have never seen the average beat cop as my enemy. Most of them are just trying to make a living and provide for their family doing a very difficult job. But I do know what happened in and around New Orleans after Katrina. Cops were taking guns from citizens who were on there own property and in some cases inside their own homes. They were told to disarm citizens and they did. Afterwards the guns were allowed to rust in a storage locker. The city only agreed to return the guns after a lawsuit from the NRA. That is the fear that I have. When I was on active duty we were told that you did not have to obey an unlawful order. But when your rank is telling you to do something I would think that most cops will obey their rank.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:36   #4
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As I said - those of us who say it ain't gonna happen ARE officers.


Those of you who say it WILL - aren't.


I believe I'll go with the former, since we actually know what we're talking about, it being our own minds and all. But, if you wanna go ahead with your fantasies, far be it from me to help you get into reality.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle359 View Post
I have never seen the average beat cop as my enemy. Most of them are just trying to make a living and provide for their family doing a very difficult job. But I do know what happened in and around New Orleans after Katrina. Cops were taking guns from citizens who were on there own property and in some cases inside their own homes. They were told to disarm citizens and they did. Afterwards the guns were allowed to rust in a storage locker. The city only agreed to return the guns after a lawsuit from the NRA. That is the fear that I have. When I was on active duty we were told that you did not have to obey an unlawful order. But when your rank is telling you to do something I would think that most cops will obey their rank.
True.

And things have changed a LOT since then. My own state even enacted laws preventing such behavior, as did many others throughout the country.

Further, how many were given the same order and did NOT comply? Funny how you don't hear about that on gun boards.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:44   #6
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As I said - those of us who say it ain't gonna happen ARE officers.


Those of you who say it WILL - aren't.


I believe I'll go with the former, since we actually know what we're talking about, it being our own minds and all. But, if you wanna go ahead with your fantasies, far be it from me to help you get into reality.
Thank you for the insulting rebuttal.

Do you disagee that when governments, any government, seeks to oppress that they cannot find those in their society willing to enforce their policies with whatever level of violence is required?

When was the last time that a revolt against a despotic regime was created and led by the regime's law enforcement employees?

Do I suggest that you or your friends will be the ones kicking in doors at midnight? I do not. I suggest that someone with a badge will be willing and eager to do so.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:18   #7
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True.

And things have changed a LOT since then. My own state even enacted laws preventing such behavior, as did many others throughout the country.

Further, how many were given the same order and did NOT comply? Funny how you don't hear about that on gun boards.
It is really hard to comment on things you did not know did not happen. Or something like that.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:56   #8
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
It seems that, in 1994, the National Lodge supported the ban. Oops.

We were informed last night that a number of lodges from around the country are now sending letters to the National President, urging him to support the 2nd Amendment, and the right of people to bear arms - and to NOT support any further gun control laws. We were also asked to decide, as a group, whether or not to join in this practice.

Not a single person disagreed with supporting citizens. Hell, the President of my lodge is a CCDW instructor, and many of the board members are "gun nuts" (I am, as well - just not a board member).

So, the third largest FOP lodge in the state of Kentucky just voted to send a letter to the National President urging him to NOT SUPPORT gun control laws.
Those who once did, now will not support gun control.
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With all due respect, sir.

No despotic power has ever found a shortage of government employees willing to enforce whatever oppressive policies such a government deems desirable to retain and increase their rule.

I understand that you feel the need to defend your fraternity as composed of individuals of character, but exhortation and fine speeches do little to ease the fear of those of us potentially under your symbolic jack boot.
So a positive statement that there are those in LE working against gun control is not welcomed as an increase in the ranks of citizens against gun control.

Tous, would you agree that unreasonable fear is a hallmark of those working to ban guns? Do you believe that if those people were to listen to fact and mute the fear mongering, more progress toward fewer restrictions, not more?
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As I said - those of us who say it ain't gonna happen ARE officers.

Those of you who say it WILL - aren't.
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Originally Posted by tous View Post
Thank you for the insulting rebuttal.

Do you disagee that when governments, any government, seeks to oppress that they cannot find those in their society willing to enforce their policies with whatever level of violence is required?

When was the last time that a revolt against a despotic regime was created and led by the regime's law enforcement employees?

Do I suggest that you or your friends will be the ones kicking in doors at midnight? I do not. I suggest that someone with a badge will be willing and eager to do so.
So, instead of welcoming the support, you push away these new partners. Instead of asking how you can support their position, demean their actions. Instead of asking how you can influence other LE organizations...never mind. I believe your mind is closed on this.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:30   #9
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Those who once did, now will not support gun control.So a positive statement that there are those in LE working against gun control is not welcomed as an increase in the ranks of citizens against gun control.

Tous, would you agree that unreasonable fear is a hallmark of those working to ban guns? Do you believe that if those people were to listen to fact and mute the fear mongering, more progress toward fewer restrictions, not more?So, instead of welcoming the support, you push away these new partners. Instead of asking how you can support their position, demean their actions. Instead of asking how you can influence other LE organizations...never mind. I believe your mind is closed on this.

So, rather then engage the debate, you choose to deem me unworthy.

Ask the citizens of New Orleans if a positive attitude and unquestioning faith in the integrity of the police officers and sheriff's deputies serving them made them feel less fearful as their doors were forced open, arms pointed at them and a demand made for the surrender of their only means of protection.

I base my argument on history. I restate, no oppressive government has ever had a shortage of employees willing enforce whatever law said government decrees. The assumption that the government employees in this country are somehow different, more moral, less interested in self-preservation is not convincing.

I further suggest that oaths of honor made among one's fellows where there is no consequence for disagreeing is hardly the stuff of commitment to a political ideal.

I do not suggest that wprebeck or his brethren won't be guided by their sense of honor. I do suggest most strongly that many of those in the same employee will do what they're told and if they do not, the government will find men that will.

I imagine that events leading up to brutal oppression against many a populace were preceded by those that urged, "It cannot happen here"
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:03   #10
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So, rather then engage the debate, you choose to deem me unworthy.
I do believe I made statements about your position. I made no statement about your worthiness.

I did say your mind is closed on this.

Instead of engaging LE in discussions to expand what is a small growing trend of LE agencies and organizations coming out against gun bans, you condemn them with history, not the future, not tomorrow, history.
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Ask the citizens of New Orleans if a positive attitude and unquestioning faith in the integrity of the police officers and sheriff's deputies serving them made them feel less fearful as their doors were forced open, arms pointed at them and a demand made for the surrender of their only means of protection.
You believe nothing was learned from that?

That was reaction to a natural disaster. Many states subsequently passed legislation banning confiscation during emergencies. GT Members who were there attest to refusing the confiscation orders.

This is far different. It is a political process driven by a few. Sitting back and waiting for history to repeat itself instead of working with every ally we can make is unwise.
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I base my argument on history. I restate, no oppressive government has ever had a shortage of employees willing enforce whatever law said government decrees. The assumption that the government employees in this country are somehow different, more moral, less interested in self-preservation is not convincing.
Is there no value in cultivating new supporters?
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I further suggest that oaths of honor made among one's fellows where there is no consequence for disagreeing is hardly the stuff of commitment to a political ideal.
So, again, you demean personal conviction.
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Originally Posted by tous View Post
I do not suggest that wprebeck or his brethren won't be guided by their sense of honor. I do suggest most strongly that many of those in the same employee will do what they're told and if they do not, the government will find men that will.
So you are content letting wprebeck and his brethren stand alone, not accepted as friends and supporters by you, alone with no support from you to influencing others in LE.
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I imagine that events leading up to brutal oppression against many a populace were preceded by those that urged, "It cannot happen here"
wprebeck did not say nothing will happen. Read it again.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:12   #11
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This debate can have no satisfying conclusion. It is speculation about what may happen in the future and neither position has a time machine.

Russ, I don't want supporters, I want the natural right of man to liberty and self-determination. The police are not freedom fighters, they are specifically agents of the government that seeks to remove said right and one of their profession assuring me that it won't occur is not persuasive.

Thank you for an interesting discussion.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:15   #12
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Tous -

IIRC, the folks who did the deed in NO weren't even locals. They were out-of-state officers brought in to help.


It's also worth noting that, in an unrelated headline, the mayor of the city (who presumably gave the orders in question) is now under federal indictment.


Again, lessons were learned on a national level about the (very brief, but entirely too much) gun confiscation that occured in LA years ago. Instead of focusing on a very small sample size that was limited to a very small locale, perhaps you should take a look at the mood nationwide.

You currently have numerous sheriffs stating they will not confiscate arms. Utah's folks even went so far as to say they will go to war over this issue...in a press release. And those are the bosses - unless you forgot, sheriffs are elected officials, and answer to no one but the voters.

On a different front, numerous lodges of the Fraternal Order of Police are telling the National Lodge what position they wish leadership to take on any pending legislation. I doubt National will go against the wishes of the membership, as it's a quick way to get ousted.

And, on an individual level - I, and many other officers on Glocktalk, along with people we all know and work with from across the country - We are saying: We WILL NOT DO IT. WE ARE AGAINST GUN CONTROL.

And still, there are many who just cannot let go of their hate for law enforcement. You fault US for the laws that politcians create. You fault US for enforcing laws that YOU allow to be made (which are deemed legal and Constitutional, I might add). And yet, you dare to claim that there exists an US vs THEM divide.

Well, yeah, there is. Only, this time, it is US who is supporting freedom, and YOU that is creating a divide. Nice job.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:20   #13
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A lot of what you get out of the local law enforcement, if given an unconstitutional order, will be determined by their personal viewpoints and their geographic location. If you follow the threads in other sub-forums, you may have seen one posted by a GT LEO. He posted about speaking with a cop from another jurisdiction where the carry laws changed, for the better. The cop from that jurisdiction thought felony car stops were necessary because of the "liklihood" the occupants of the vehicle would be armed. It was generally agreed that cop needed a refresher in officer safety; all contacts have the possibility of being armed, whether legal, or not.

Yes, some LEO's would follow unconstitutionl orders. Some are bad cops already. It sucks, but no category of people is pefect. We're trying to weed out the bad ones, presently.

In my area, I know most of the guys very well. If such orders come, we will all have been victim to an unfortunate boating accident. Cops in places where guns are seen as "evil" may not react that way; many may not even own a personally owned weapon. Everyone at my agency has more than one personlly owned firearm. Most of us have a couple

Don't think, for a moment, that discretion is not practiced regulalry in regard to laws that individual officers do not agree with. For example, I know a few LEO's who believe requiring seat belts for adults (espcially, riding alone) is not a decision to be made by the government. If they happen to let every adult go, ustopped and uncited, no one knows but the LEO. No different than the earlier citing of how many Katrina affected LEO's disregarded the order to disarm citizens. You have no way of knowing how many don't follow the unlawful orders, yet you keep repeating about those who have.

I have written all of my representatives, and some who aren't technically mine, personal letters. I have offered ride-a-longs to law makers, in attempt to show them what has been successful and unsuccessful. To date, only one has said she would go, but hasn't made it out, yet.

I take people shooting, who would otherwise not have the opportunity. I have been with many people when they "fired their first shot". Many of the men I work with can say the same.

I know, if orders come down from the Federal Government, or wherever, to confiscate firearms from otherwise law-abiding citizens, my Sheriff will oppose them. My coworkers will oppose them. If they cannot be officially opposed, searches will turn up nothing. Known "offenders" will be bypassed. Like the example given, this is already occurring. I hardly write any citations sans custodial arrest. Why? The fines and court costs, combined, have become too expensive. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

You may be thinking, they'll just find soemone who will. Not on a local level, they won't. They can't. It takes a lot of time and money to train a new recruit. Even then, you don't know what you're getting until after you get it.

I may keep my job, even in the face of disagreeable orders to know that someone who would "oppress" can't do it in my stead. You say it's chasing a pension. I ask why you'd rather have me replaced with what you fear.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:21   #14
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:39   #15
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Russ, I don't want supporters, I want the natural right of man to liberty and self-determination. The police are not freedom fighters, they are specifically agents of the government that seeks to remove said right and one of their profession assuring me that it won't occur is not persuasive.

Thank you for an interesting discussion.
It appears you do want supporters.

How are the police not freedom fighters?

We are specifically agents sworn to uphold the Constitution and the greater good of society. We are not sworn in to only do bad things to good people, we are expressly prohibited from such a thing. You post like no law enforcement officer has every helped anyone. The world through your eyes is not reality. I agree that no one will be able to convince you otherwise.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:51   #16
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I can say that yes, I believe that there will be officers who will obey unconstitutional orders, yet I appreciate and thank those who will not.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:08   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
This story contains the following:

Evil union employees
Law enforcement officers
Guns


So, read at your own risk.






Well, the event that I was told would never happen (even though it is happening more and more frequently across the country), occurred last night.

I was at our monthly FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) meeting, when the subject of the pending AWB legislation was broached. It seems that, in 1994, the National Lodge supported the ban. Oops.

We were informed last night that a number of lodges from around the country are now sending letters to the National President, urging him to support the 2nd Amendment, and the right of people to bear arms - and to NOT support any further gun control laws. We were also asked to decide, as a group, whether or not to join in this practice.

Not a single person disagreed with supporting citizens. Hell, the President of my lodge is a CCDW instructor, and many of the board members are "gun nuts" (I am, as well - just not a board member).

So, the third largest FOP lodge in the state of Kentucky just voted to send a letter to the National President urging him to NOT SUPPORT gun control laws.

Yep. We, the evil union members who wear jackboots, are on your side. And, the numbers of us who are speaking out publicly are growing, as evidenced by numerous threads in this very forum.

So, please keep this in mind before going off on a hate filled spree against LE, mmkay? We really "are" on your side - and pensions don't much matter to most of us, when it comes time to do the right thing. I have been repeatedly assured that is NOT the case, but the odd thing is: none of those doing the mouth running are cops - and ALL of the ones I've talked to who say they will NOT take guns...are cops.

Hmm...who to believe?
I related this on a thread a few weeks ago, but FLEOA (Federal law enforcement officers association) also ran into resistance from its members when they indicated they would (again) support the AWB.

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Old 01-30-2013, 15:17   #18
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Us vs. THEM is kept alive...
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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:24   #19
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I related this on a thread a few weeks ago, but FLEOA (Federal law enforcement officers association) also ran into resistance from its members when they indicated they would (again) support the AWB.

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I remember the thread.

Seems folks are too ingrained in their beliefs to see how this situation could be resolved differently.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:27   #20
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Us vs. THEM is kept alive...
I respectfully suggest, sir, that statements by those of your profession that those not of your ilk, "just don't get it," and "your not one of us so your opinion is worthless," contributes to the US vs THEM phenomena.

That you and your fellow law enforcement professionals rebut a reasonable argument with, "just another cop hater," speaks volumes.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:31   #21
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Many things in life have a two way street, time to start paying attention to that other lane of traffic.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:32   #22
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This debate can have no satisfying conclusion. It is speculation about what may happen in the future and neither position has a time machine.
It is about building relationships to influence the outcome in the future. It is about learning from history and changing what caused failure.
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Russ, I don't want supporters, I want the natural right of man to liberty and self-determination.
And you will achieve that alone? How will you do that?
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The police are not freedom fighters,
All of them?
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they are specifically agents of the government that seeks to remove said right and one of their profession assuring me that it won't occur is not persuasive.
What if from within those ranks came word of dissent, of dissatisfaction with their leaders among the rank and file. That is what is happening. The leadership is in front of the cameras spouting the political line. At the same time more and more rank and file are saying, "We disagree and will not support gun control."

You feel better accepting the leaderships talking points because it falls into your "historical rationalization."

More and more in LE are saying, "Hey, we know the history. We are not going to repeat it."
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:48   #23
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Russ,

Even some of the leaders are doing the same. As I've mentioned, and we've all seen posted here on GT, many sheriffs across the country are speaking out about this issue. One of them was from Jackson county, KY - and I have family there (in laws, but still family).

Places as varied as Utah and Wisconsin. Both white and black folks. Demographics mean nothing this time, nor should they. What "does" matter is, Americans are tired of the crap. When police around the nation are saying, "Gun control isn't the solution", then two things should be happening:

Politicians and the liberal left should pay attention. We are on the front lines of this battle, and we know how to better prosecute it than the idiots who spout off lines like "If it only saves one child". We know criminals will be criminals, and making an item illegal will not stop their actions. It's time the left, and the lawmakers, start listening to us.

The second thing that should occur is gun owners waking up. Hey, we're not here to take your guns. While I don't dispute that there is, and always be, "that guy" who does retarded stuff (we all know a Farva in our agency...if you don't, it's likely you). Thing is, "that guy" will likely be doing stuff on his own, if he chooses to do it at all. Alternatively, peer pressure is alive and well, even within LE. Some people may not wish to do the right thing, but will do so simply because everyone else is doing so.

Again, I realize this upsets the fantasies of those who wish to die a glorious death in a pitched gun battle with the evil JBT's of the nation, thus ensuring their place in history. Sorry for the disappointment. We want the good guys to keep their guns, so they can shoot the bad guys, when necessary. It makes for more room in the jail, and ultimately saves money.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:52   #24
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This should be cause for celebration. Have any LEO's organized and banded together with the Oath Keepers and Green Berets who are standing up against this tyranny?
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Old 01-30-2013, 16:08   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tous View Post
I respectfully suggest, sir,
Is that tongue-in-cheek...?
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that statements by those of your profession that those not of your ilk, "just don't get it," and "your not one of us so your opinion is worthless,"
What does that have to do with this thread? Members in law enforcement are saying they support the Constitution, they voted to reject their leadership's support of gun control. Do you not understand that? Or, do you just not want to admit that maybe thye are on your side, wearing a badge?
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That you and your fellow law enforcement professionals rebut a reasonable argument with, "just another cop hater," speaks volumes.
Who said, "just another cop hater?" Did I miss it in someone's post?
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