Difficult to rack with the trigger pulled

cciman · 01-23-2013, 09:08

Few questions for 1911 mechanics:

Dropped in a C&S Tactical trigger kit into a PT1911. On testing I decide to check trigger reset:

I cock the hammer (directly or with slide), trigger fire it (it feels fine), and hold the trigger back. While holding the trigger back, I discover it is very hard to rack the slide, unless I let the trigger out.

1) Is this relevant to the function of the gun?
2) If so, what is causing it?

I've taken the upper off and compared the mechanical behavior of the various components at the top rear of the frame with my other 1911's (all series 80 style), and I do not see a difference when the trigger is held back on the other frames.

***faawrenchbndr*** · 01-23-2013, 09:47

Normal.....you are attempting to overcome both the recoil & the main spring.

1911Tuner · 01-23-2013, 14:43

Check the center leg of the sear spring. When this happens, it's usually too short and bearing low on the disconnect. Unless I miss my bet...if you've fired it a few times...it'll have a kink in it about 1/8th inch from the top.

cciman · 01-23-2013, 22:17

Thanks, I haven't fired it yet. What's the ideal position of that sear finger?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1911Tuner

Check the center leg of the sear spring. When this happens, it's usually too short and bearing low on the disconnect. Unless I miss my bet...if you've fired it a few times...it'll have a kink in it about 1/8th inch from the top.

cciman · 01-23-2013, 22:23

No, it is physically stopped somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr

Normal.....you are attempting to overcome both the recoil & the main spring.

1911Tuner · 01-24-2013, 02:45

Quote:

Thanks, I haven't fired it yet. What's the ideal position of that sear finger?

That's tough to describe without being able to see it...but just slightly below the centerline of the angled spine...between the apex and the bottom. If it's too high, the disconnect can't reset properly, and pulling the trigger on the subsequent shot will fail to release the hammer. This will usually be an intermittent problem.

Too low, and the slide can't push the disconnect down into the disconnected position with the trigger held firmly rearward...and then pushes down easily once the trigger is released. With this condition in play, forcing the slide rearward will usually put a light bend in the center leg of the spring close to the top.

The proper angle of that part of the disconnect is 46 degrees. If that angle is just a little too sharp...say at 48 degrees or so...the slide will be difficult to cycle even with the trigger forward, though not usually as hard as yours is unless that angle is badly out of spec.

***faawrenchbndr*** · 01-24-2013, 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cciman

No, it is physically stopped somewhere.

Oops,.......misread the post. Missed the "trigger pulled"

cciman · 01-24-2013, 13:26

Anything else that could be hampering slide movement with trigger held back?

OK, again this is the $100 C&S Tactical kit sold as a drop in (Hammer/ sear/disconnector/sear spring/mainspring as one kit), so I am assuming that the disconnector angle is cut correctly, as well as the sear/hammer angle. The Sear spring is the one provided in the kit. The center finger is just barely off the bottom. but still sits on the slope of the hill.

Comparing the C&S sear spring to the stock Taurus, center fingers are the same length, but the C&S finger is more arched backward from Left finger (looks very much like a Colt spring), whereas the Taurus is bowed in the center but closer in plane with the left finger (looks very much like a Wilson spring). On profile the C&S sear spring looks like 3 spread fingers, whereas the Taurus looks like just 2.

I straightened out the C&S spring (halfway closer to the Left finger) to give more height/length on housing compression. Symptom only mildly improved.

What is the danger, downside, of having a bend in the center spring as you mentioned, which may happen when I shoot the gun. Will this self correct after firing. a few rounds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1911Tuner

That's tough to describe without being able to see it...but just slightly below the centerline of the angled spine...between the apex and the bottom. If it's too high, the disconnect can't reset properly, and pulling the trigger on the subsequent shot will fail to release the hammer. This will usually be an intermittent problem.

Too low, and the slide can't push the disconnect down into the disconnected position with the trigger held firmly rearward...and then pushes down easily once the trigger is released. With this condition in play, forcing the slide rearward will usually put a light bend in the center leg of the spring close to the top.

The proper angle of that part of the disconnect is 46 degrees. If that angle is just a little too sharp...say at 48 degrees or so...the slide will be difficult to cycle even with the trigger forward, though not usually as hard as yours is unless that angle is badly out of spec.

1911Tuner · 01-24-2013, 15:57

Quote:

Anything else that could be hampering slide movement with trigger held back?

No. The spring is interfering with the disconnect, and the disconnect is what is arresting the slide.

Quote:

What is the danger, downside, of having a bend in the center spring as you mentioned, which may happen when I shoot the gun. Will this self correct after firing. a few rounds?

The last one that I ran into that did that...the gun went full-auto. There was also an issue with light interference between the top of the disconnector spade and the bottoms of the sear feet, so that was also a player. If Ken Rainey is still a member here, he can confirm...and if memory serves me...it was a C&S parts set that he installed.

With that not a factor, about the worst that could happen would be a failure to release the hammer because the trigger squirts the disconnect out of position between the trigger stirrup and the sear.

No. It won't correct itself.

Since yours appears to be the correct length, it may be that it's too straight, and a little more bend may correct the problem. Easy does it. Too much, and the disconnect won't stay in the connected position when the trigger is pulled.

While you've got it apart, check to see that the top has a slight angle instead of a sharp corner. If it's not there, swipe it on a stone to create one.

cciman · 01-25-2013, 22:46

Went back to stock parts, and works fine if not better.

Not worth the trouble, time and money IMHO.

I did learn a few things: Modern guns are much easier to work on and troubleshoot. This gun reminds me of the windup clock on my mantle.

SilverBullet_83 · 01-31-2013, 08:03

Why I just leave em alone. Dont want to mess anything up

up1911fan · 01-31-2013, 08:27

Wait......you put C&S internals in a Taurus?

hk_shootr · 01-31-2013, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by cciman

Went back to stock parts, and works fine if not better.

Not worth the trouble, time and money IMHO.

I did learn a few things: Modern guns are much easier to work on and troubleshoot. This gun reminds me of the windup clock on my mantle.

Kinda tells me that the Taurus is not machined to proper 1911 dimensions.
C&S ignition systems are very good.

m814 · 01-31-2013, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hk_shootr

Kinda tells me that the Taurus is not machined to proper 1911 dimensions.
C&S ignition systems are very good.

Pretty common from what I understand. My gunsmith friend will not work on the Taurus 1911 due to all parts are "Taurus Spec" and nothing else works right when used without serious fitting and trial and error.