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Old 02-01-2013, 08:21   #21
MarineHawk
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To me the possibility of choosing a non-stock recoil spring makes more sense with the 10mm than with just about any other auto cartridge because of the extreme spread in the power of the available loadings.

Are the following correct, given that 180gr 10mm loads can vary from producing 1,000 fps up to around 1,350 fps from a 4.6" barrel?

1. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads won't be ideal for the heavier loads.

2. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads will, however, work for the heavier loads, but will result in the slide slamming harder/faster against the receiver.

3. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the heavier loads won't work consistently well with the lighter loads.

4. With the heavier spring and firing the heavy loads, the slide will not slam as hard against the receiver as with a lighter spring.

I think all of those things are true, but I admit I am no expert and could be wrong about something. I know the slide also will close harder with the heavier spring.

If those things are true (and one slide can't work ideally both for 400 ft-lb and 750 ft-lb loads), for those who only intend to fire the limited number of factory loadings available that are hotter than the .40 S&W (or handload and load hot), it makes sense to me to install a stouter spring.

I have not had a single FTF/FTE with my 22-lb spring. I'm not saying anyone else should run out and get one, but it's not necessarily a preposterous concept.

For me, my range time is not limited by the recoil springs I do or don't buy. It's limited by my abysmal work schedule and the amount of time I'm willing to spend away from my family during the remainder.

Last edited by MarineHawk; 02-01-2013 at 08:22..
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:53   #22
Cwlongshot
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I can understand your confusion. Your just gonna need to wade thru filter these comments and decide. Good thing is you will likely be fine to leave it stock. BUT I agree improvements can be made.

You will always find the GLOCK purists that say there is nothing possible a person can do to improve perfection that is a GLOCK.

There are those who will never be satisfied and always think they can improve on any design.

Then there are those who feel nothing should be done to a carry gun for legal and reliability reasons.

My opinion is kinda a little of all of these.

I have been using Wolffe springs for over 25 years and will continue he to do so. They are a improvement to any gun you I stall them in.

I also do not like the nylon/plastic guide rod. But feel the tungsten jobbers are useless. A good STS is all that's needed. I also prefer capture for ease of assembly.

I agree with Marine Hawks excellent post about different spring weights and lock up. The 10MM hase been neutered to the point its become confusing. The Underwood ammo (IIRC) is loaded to or closer to the SAMMI 37.5K spec. So I would try a heavier spring. Again as mentioned. GLOCK smiles on cases are directly related to two things under supported barrels and lock up issues. In many cases simply a heavier spring will cure the problem.

I run a 22# in my G20. But I also have a KKM6" barrel and shoot 200g ammo at 1300fps.

So shoot it as is and try it with a heavier spring. Springs are cheap. Enjoy your big10!

Good luck,
CW
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:06   #23
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Thanks for all the great info guys!! I'm definitely not looking for a reason to spend money. In fact, choosing the best spring, i thought, would help me become more accurate more quickly and, in turn, spend less on ammo. Let's face it, ammo is the expensive part about 10mm. I'm a big fan of stock glocks. I have 8 and the only thing aftermarket is night sights. Just read alot here about spring weights and wanted the experts opinions. I'm thinking about a 19# Stainless steel and seeing if there is any difference.

Thanks again for all the feedback!
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:45   #24
MarineHawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwlongshot View Post
I run a 22# in my G20. But I also have a KKM6" barrel and shoot 200g ammo at 1300fps.
CW, I have the same basic setup, but I can't find 1,300 fps 200gr ammo. Are they reloads? I would love to have even 1,200 fps HC WFN ammo, but it seems like, despite some manufacturers' claims, that does not exist yet. But perhaps I've missed something good out there.
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Old 02-01-2013, 14:06   #25
Any Cal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post

Are the following correct, given that 180gr 10mm loads can vary from producing 1,000 fps up to around 1,350 fps from a 4.6" barrel?

1. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads won't be ideal for the heavier loads.Maybe, or not. The problem is that no one actually knows.

2. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads will, however, work for the heavier loads, but will result in the slide slamming harder/faster against the receiver.It seems that way, but remember that you have to hold the gun much firmer for the heavier spring to work. Could it be that the heavy spring still lets the slide hit just as hard because of that? I don't know. Is the slide speed related to kinetic energy or momentum? It changes things. Does it matter if the slide hits harder in the first place?

3. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the heavier loads won't work consistently well with the lighter loads.Depends on what the 'best' spring is and how tolerant the design is of an improper spring rate, or if the spring rate even matters.

4. With the heavier spring and firing the heavy loads, the slide will not slam as hard against the receiver as with a lighter spring.See #2. Also, is it actually detrimental for the slide to hit the frame harder?

I think all of those things are true, but I admit I am no expert and could be wrong about something. I know the slide also will close harder with the heavier spring.

If those things are true (and one slide can't work ideally both for 400 ft-lb and 750 ft-lb loads), for those who only intend to fire the limited number of factory loadings available that are hotter than the .40 S&W (or handload and load hot), it makes sense to me to install a stouter spring.

I have not had a single FTF/FTE with my 22-lb spring. I'm not saying anyone else should run out and get one, but it's not necessarily a preposterous concept.

For me, my range time is not limited by the recoil springs I do or don't buy. It's limited by my abysmal work schedule and the amount of time I'm willing to spend away from my family during the remainder.
I don't mean to argue, I would love to hear what you think. My only thought is that there is a lot more engineering that goes in to each part than most people realize, so it would take several important pieces of info to be able to say at which point a spring would be required, and whether it would be detrimental under any conditions.

There is going to be a limit on how hard the slide can hit the frame, based on how rigidly the frame can be held by human hands and the slide speed that can be achieved by the load itself. The ultimate question is whether there is a load, and which load that would be, that can raise slide speed high enough to damage the frame when it is held by human hands . Once again, I don't know the slide speed, at what point it is damaging to the frame, how grip strength affects the issue, or which loads will have the most drastic affect on slide speed. If someone had all of those answers, they could start arguing with the factory.

There are several parts to an auto's recoil, the muzzle coming up and the slide coming back, the slide hitting the frame, the slide accelerating forward, and the slide hitting full lockup. A different spring that changes properties in one direction would have to make up the difference somewhere. If it can slow the slide sooner, it will accelerate it forward faster and it will hit the frame on closing harder. Not saying anything is right or wrong, but can imagine that it is difficult to quantify recoil well since there are multiple components that we may perceive differently.

Last edited by Any Cal.; 02-01-2013 at 14:24..
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Old 02-01-2013, 16:52   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
CW, I have the same basic setup, but I can't find 1,300 fps 200gr ammo. Are they reloads? I would love to have even 1,200 fps HC WFN ammo, but it seems like, despite some manufacturers' claims, that does not exist yet. But perhaps I've missed something good out there.
Yes hand loads, aside form Rim fires, the 10MM Silver Tips are the first factory ammo I have bought in over 10 years.

I started working up some loads with Blue dot and got some good velocities but then pressure signs but then none... I was steered to Longshot, I liked the name. This powder is much friendlier and no pressure spikes. I have chronographed loads and stopped because I reached velocities I wanted. I'll not resite my loads, but sufice it to say, they are beyond the book...

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Old 02-01-2013, 20:58   #27
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Any Cal., I appreciate your thoughtful comments and questions. Keep in mind that I have some firm beliefs and some information, but I am wrong all the time. So take this with a grain of salt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
… you have to hold the gun much firmer for the heavier spring to work. Could it be that the heavy spring still lets the slide hit just as hard because of that? I don't know.

My strong suspicion is that, for me and most, there is no difference, as to grip strength. I generally use mostly the same stance and grip when shooting different calibers. There might be a difference if I had to weak-grip a handgun when firing due to injury or something. But I would just a soon jump off the bridge when I come to it.

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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
Is the slide speed related to kinetic energy or momentum?

Momentum is Mass x Vel. The momentum of the bullet plus gas escaping forward out of the barrel (that’s why muzzle brakes decrease recoil by directing the gas in a difference direction) is going to be equal to the rearward momentum of the firearm. The rearward momentum of the firearm overall will equal the same figure. For an auto, up to the point when the slide hits the receiver, that holds true for the rearward movement of the slide, except for the force imparted by the recoil spring, which redistributes some of that momentum to the frame. The overall recoil impulse is based on the rearward energy of the firearm (1/2MV^2), not its momentum. But the severity of felt recoil is affected by anything that might spread out the rearward movement over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
… is it actually detrimental for the slide to hit the frame harder?

It has to increase wear on the mechanical system. However, it is possible that the G20 design simply is strong enough that it doesn’t matter. I don’t know. For the sake of argument, ignore any additional stress on the firearm caused by the additional increased velocity of the slide striking the receiver.

But, the reason various recoil-reducing devices work is that they spread out recoil energy over time—round off the peak pressure curve. Thus, for example, for a pistol and revolver of the same weight firing the same weigh bullet at the same velocity, the revolver will generally produce greater felt recoil (grip shape; the distance of the muzzle axis to the grip; and countless other factors can affect this). This is because while the slide is moving rearward, but under spring tension, it is spreading out the recoil over time. The revolver’s recoil is felt all at once. They have the same recoil energy, but with the semi-auto, it is spread out over time. That’s also why recoil pads, mercury tubes, etc … work. They spread out and slow down the release of energy into your shoulder or hand.

That’s also why, while a Federal 3” mag 12-ga slug (547gr at 3,110 fps) has more momentum than the 300gr 2,770 fps bullet fired from my .375 Wby rifle, but has less felt recoil: Because the heavier slower bullet has more of a push than a snap. Same recoil energy, but the slower, heavier round spreads it out more over time.

So, the more of the recoil energy that is absorbed by a semi-auto firearm while the slide is still moving rearward and pushing back on the spring (spreading the impulse out over time) and the less remaining energy that is absorbed in an instant (like a revolver) by the slide smacking hard against the receiver, will mean the you will “feel” less recoil—i.e., it will be spread out more over time: more of a pushing than a smacking.

My own view (again, I could be wrong) is that the energy of the slide slamming against the receiver in a gun like a G20 with hot loads is a lot more destructive than the force of a 22lb spring closing the slide. So, to the extent one is concerned about wear, the former outweighs the latter.

Again, I could be completely wrong about my conclusions because I often miss important factors in things like these. But those are my thoughts.
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Old 02-01-2013, 23:24   #28
Any Cal.
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That works as well as anything. I don't have all the answers, just looking for them. I would agree that the recoil could seem softer because it was less abrupt, and that a slower rearward slide movement could seem to be better. It still just leaves the questions of whether the gun's design is strong enough to make it a moot point, and whether there is any issue at all with doing it just because... There is a good chance that it may not matter one way or the other, but that is markedly different from the idea that a stronger spring would be required.

If you are the same guy that posted pics of fishing for grayling in AK around a year or two back, I really liked a couple of your posts. I don't remember where they were or what they were about, but recognize the user name.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:00   #29
MarineHawk
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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
That works as well as anything. I don't have all the answers, just looking for them. I would agree that the recoil could seem softer because it was less abrupt, and that a slower rearward slide movement could seem to be better. It still just leaves the questions of whether the gun's design is strong enough to make it a moot point, and whether there is any issue at all with doing it just because... There is a good chance that it may not matter one way or the other, but that is markedly different from the idea that a stronger spring would be required.

If you are the same guy that posted pics of fishing for grayling in AK around a year or two back, I really liked a couple of your posts. I don't remember where they were or what they were about, but recognize the user name.
Thanks Any Cal. Yes, that probably was me. I went on a brown bear hunt and fishing trip a couple of years ago: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ort-and-Photos)

The other thing I failed to meniton is that the 2-spring design, like on the G27 and now the Gen4 Glocks may solve the dillema entirely if they are designed correctly. The first time I saw something like that was on the .40 HK USP I bought bakc in '94, and then again on the G27 I bought a while back. My G27 seems to recoil significantly less than othewr., much large .40s firing the same ammo. In my opinion, a 2-spring design could give you the best of both worlds: (1) A moderate spring to resist the rearward motion of the slide initially that is light enough to permit the cartridge to eject on an wide range of mild-to-hot loads; and (2) a heavier spring that kicks in only after that and which will continue slowing the slide when hotter loads are fired. I do not have a Gen4 yet, but that seems to be the case on the stock springs I have on my G27 and my USP. I honestly do not know if the slide ever quite hits the receiver at all on those two guns with normal .40 S&W loads. I don't know exactly how these 2-spring systems function in practical reality, but in theory they should allow a weak-heavy spring combo that allows realiable function and zero or reduced slide/receiver impact with a wide range of loads.
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Old 04-30-2013, 17:39   #30
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I have a G20 SF and had more than one FTF with DT 200 grain hardcast rounds. After reading some of the threads here on Glock Talk I tried the youtube RSA spring test and discovered that my recoil spring needed changing. I don't believe that I have shot much over 1,000 rounds with this pistol. I ordered a 20 lb Brass Stacker RSA which I recieved in 3 days. The slide closes more firmly now over the 17lb stock RSA but not to hard. I shot 150 rounds of Remington UMC, 50 rounds of Underwood 200 gr XTP's and 40 rounds of DT 200 gr Hardcast. Although this may not be a huge amount of ammo cycled through this gun after making a change, I believe I've made a good improvement going to this 20 lb spring so far. Stock pistol otherwise.
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Old 04-30-2013, 19:29   #31
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A heavier spring won't reduce "felt recoil". Most often, it will increase it.
That's exactly right.

The forward return is also more abrupt, so getting sights back on target are a bit slower for me with my 22# Wolff.

Another disadvantage of stiffer springs is that it reduces the time that the slide dwells in the locked back (rearward) position. Also, the forward velocity is increased. The combination reduced lock-back time and increased return velocity can increase the likelihood of misfeads (as I have experienced) due to the slide returning quicker. What happens is that the slide returns before the next round is lifted up to position. The result is nose-up misfeeds.

Shooting one-hand, weak-hand, or in an odd angle of presentation can induce a bit of "limp-wristing." A heavier spring can cause a slight case of limp-wristing to manifest into a misfeed as described above. This is especially true with hotter ammo.

The advice to the OP would be to shoot the thing. If there is a problem that would be solved by a higher spring rate, then it is a relatively inexpensive fix. Realistically though, you'll probably have no issues.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:55   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
A heavier spring won't reduce "felt recoil". Most often, it will increase it.
THIS.

My suggestion to the OP is to leave it stock for everything except for maybe the VERY HOTTEST of loads available (handloads or factory) ... and even then, only change to a 20lb spring if you are having issues (ie, bulging brass, ejection issues, etc).

FWIW, the stock spring will always be most reliable with any load, IMHO.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:22   #33
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I use 22# on my G20L and standard on G29.
no problem with any, also told to use 15# with G20 conversion barrel to .40, but had no issues with using #22
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:23   #34
igorts
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I use 22# on my G20L and standard on G29.
no problem with any, also told to use 15# with G20 conversion barrel to .40, but had no issues with using #22 with .40
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