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Old 01-31-2013, 18:37   #51
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
I think the support of the various law enforcement agencies across the country against the President's gun control measures is the strongest defense we have, even more so than the NRA.
Well said.
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The average non gun owner has a negative impression of the NRA, and the mainstream media has an outright bias against it. When Sheriffs and Police unions speak out publicly against the proposals it takes the wind right out of the proponents sails. What can they argue, that the police don't know what works on the streets? Hardly. I, for one, see this as the key component to successfully defending our 2nd Amendment rights, and I'm an NRA lifer. Thanks to any, and all, that are joining together to stand up and be counted.
True... Thanks, sir.
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Old 01-31-2013, 19:32   #52
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
As I said - those of us who say it ain't gonna happen ARE officers.


Those of you who say it WILL - aren't.


I believe I'll go with the former, since we actually know what we're talking about, it being our own minds and all. But, if you wanna go ahead with your fantasies, far be it from me to help you get into reality.
You made the first us vs them, in your thread about cops. How appropriate.

Lordy howdy, I'm gonna write all my kin and tell them there is no worry about gun control or confiscation because a police union voted in KY to support the constitution.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:34   #53
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Lordy howdy, I'm gonna write all my kin and tell them there is no worry about gun control or confiscation because a police union voted in KY to support the constitution.
Why don't you write them and ask if they have talked to LE in their areas about doing the same thing? How about you? Have you reached out and had that conversation with your local LE yet?
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:01   #54
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I don't hate the police. But I guess you could say I have a healthy suspicion of the group as a whole. The same as some people have a healthy suspicion of the military, which includes me.

I'm very happy that there are Sherriffs, etc all across the country saying they won't enforce new unconstitutional gun grabs, laws, etc. It's great the a lot of these FOP, etc organizations are speaking up to their superiors to say that they disagree with what is going on. But by his own admission, wprebeck showed us that the FOP SUPPORTED the 94 gun ban. Since then, what we the people see in the news is overwhelming putting LE in a bad light, as their leaders have continued to support things that are unconstitutional. I'm not saying that in KY, it's being supported, but Kentucky doesn't really make the national news much. It's NYC, and Chicago and CA, and A LOT of the big name leadership there supports anti-2A, 4A laws. When you get a steady diet of crap, after a while your mind will start to tell you that it tastes good.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm hopeful that the majority of the LE agencies around the country will stand up, and speak out on a national level, and write letters to the President, Congress, etc that they won't be following any unconstitutional laws. But yes, it'll be much easier to believe that the LE community AS A WHOLE is on the side of 'We the People' when we start seeing these letters of dissent coming from the brass at the top.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:38   #55
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Why don't you write them and ask if they have talked to LE in their areas about doing the same thing? How about you? Have you reached out and had that conversation with your local LE yet?
No, I havent. I call my Reps and Senators. This may come as a surprise but cops dont make the laws. The right or left only cares about the opinion of police when it supports thier cause. I only care about the opinion of my legislative body.
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Old 02-01-2013, 19:06   #56
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It’s nice to see some LE unions reaching out to the citizens.
What happens when the Feds cut-off any funding that you currently receive for your city, county or state agency because your union has issued a proclamation supporting the 2nd Amendment?
If a (Insert Federal Agency here) shows up with superior firepower (lawyers, guns and money) to enforce the new Federal regulations, do you become one of us?

Your current show of support is appreciated but it may be a bit too late.
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Old 02-01-2013, 23:33   #57
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Did you read the thread? A group that represents federal LE already stated their opposition.

Plus, my agency has 400+ sworn. That's a whole lot more of just my agency as compared to the feds. Then, there's the sheriff's office (200+), LMPD (1000+), and a couple hundred more officers from various local agencies in my county. That doesn't include any state agencies. All told, there's around 2000+ local and state LE in my county, most of whom are with you guys as far as guns go.

And yes, I'd be one of you guys, should they come for our guns. You have to make a stand at some point, and it would appear that guns are the line in the sand for many Americans, even those of us with badges.
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Old 02-01-2013, 23:56   #58
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Originally Posted by Rick C View Post
... do you become one of us?

Your current show of support is appreciated but it may be a bit too late.
Many of us have been with you the whole time, no matter how many of you don't want us on your side.
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Old 02-01-2013, 23:57   #59
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...it would appear that guns are the line in the sand for many Americans, even those of us with badges.
...especially, those of us with badges.
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Old 02-02-2013, 00:13   #60
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not posting to flame , so keep the lighter off .

my opinion is , if the SHTF IF ,and i say IF , outbreak happens over gun control , there may be folks who make a stand in the sand . BUT IF IT HAPPENS AND I HOPE IT DONT , I DONT BUY IT .

i think when orders are given they will take those orders and go with it . if people believe that law enforcement will stand with citizens in a bad situation when ordered they have head in sand . some MIGHT STAND UNITED AND I WOULD HOPE SO . what bout the ones who dont ??

my comments are opinion only , flame if thats what you like . and im not gonna hijack or clutter up someones thread.

AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM FIGHTING BESIDE ANY LEO . who stands for whats right .
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Old 02-02-2013, 00:17   #61
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Originally Posted by tous View Post

Do you disagee that when governments, any government, seeks to oppress that they cannot find those in their society willing to enforce their policies with whatever level of violence is required?

When was the last time that a revolt against a despotic regime was created and led by the regime's law enforcement employees?

Do I suggest that you or your friends will be the ones kicking in doors at midnight? I do not. I suggest that someone with a badge will be willing and eager to do so.
I would like to respectfully disagree with you, Tous. There is that old saying about those who don't learn from history be doomed to repeat it. But sometimes we DO learn, and we can all hope that this is one of those times.

Personally, I'd like to see an organization made of LEO's and citizens that stands up for the rights of all. And I realize that cops are members of the NRA and such. I'm thinking an organization based on citizens and LEO's working together.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:27   #62
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Wprebeck,

I am relieved that your lodge has this mindset. Often times we define ourselves by what our occupation(s) are (or in this case, is not!).

The "Clinton Ban" of 1994-2004 was almost like being inoculated with a small dose of stupidity. Many of the regular citizens all over this country stood behind that ban because there was no previous history in recent years of such a type of ban.

Today, mostly EVERYONE knows what bans such as that accomplish, and what it does not, so the decision has much less gray areas and much more of a binary situation than before. We know that certain bans on magazines don't "work", there is no need to test and see.



My final thought on this march towards pro-gun vs pro-control war is that it would be much more efficient for each of us (gun nuts) to find someone who is anti gun, and with logic, patience and gentle persuasion show them our perspective. In my experience working with someone who is anti gun, but open minded to discussion, it takes time, but that convert immediately takes a vote from the minus side and puts it on the (our) plus side.

To date I have not seen one single large gun-rights organization promulgate a plan that addresses changing the mindset of anti gun folks. That is where the "war" will be won or lost. All of this fundraising lobbying congress ****, those are simply skirmishes.

Find someone who is anti gun and work on showing them your perspective.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:31   #63
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Everything is back-doored these days, so the door-to-door confiscation thing isn't even necessary.

There is already a bill in congress that would provide a $2,000 IRS credit if you turn in your weapon. Now, turn up the IRS involvement another notch or two. Suppose the IRS claims you owe some back taxes just about the same time your CCW "permit" is up for renewal. All it takes is a mandate to all the (at first) may issue states. Sheriffs will no longer be permitted to issue or renew a CCW for those with an IRS claim against them. Don't want to comply with the U.S. Treasury, you say? Then forget about any federal funding, at the very least.

Lots of other scenarios like this one. The stick-and-carrot approach will keep law enforcement in line without ever knocking on a single door.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:41   #64
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Originally Posted by ilgunguygt View Post
This may come as a surprise but cops dont make the laws. The right or left only cares about the opinion of police when it supports thier cause. I only care about the opinion of my legislative body.
Kudos, sir.

You'd be disappointed as to how many people really don't know (or don't want to acknowledge) that cops don't make the laws.

Laws are made by lawmakers (sounds obvious), who are the Legislative branch of our .gov. They are answerable to their constituents (that's you and me) who can elect them into, and out of, office. True, it might take 2 to 4 years before election time, but it comes.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:42   #65
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Kudos, sir.

You'd be disappointed as to how many people really don't know (or don't want to acknowledge) that cops don't make the laws.

Laws are made by lawmakers (sounds obvious), who are the Legislative branch of our .gov. They are answerable to their constituents (that's you and me) who can elect them into, and out of, office. True, it might take 2 to 4 years before election time, but it comes.
i think everyone with an ounce of common sense knows LEO does not make the laws . that statement is a known fact yet it keeps getting repeated for some odd reason .
THE FACT IS - LEO are the ones who enforce those laws ,
be wrong or right , agree or disagree .
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:01   #66
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That's great news wpbreck.

Common sense dictates that you treat cops for what they are - individuals.

Having said that, we are pretty much a product of our environment and the some of guys on the left and right coasts are probably going to have a different view of things compared to the guys in most of the heartland states.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:24   #67
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Originally Posted by *ASH* View Post
not posting to flame , so keep the lighter off .

my opinion is , if the SHTF IF ,and i say IF , outbreak happens over gun control , there may be folks who make a stand in the sand . BUT IF IT HAPPENS AND I HOPE IT DONT , I DONT BUY IT .

i think when orders are given they will take those orders and go with it . if people believe that law enforcement will stand with citizens in a bad situation when ordered they have head in sand . some MIGHT STAND UNITED AND I WOULD HOPE SO . what bout the ones who dont ??

my comments are opinion only , flame if thats what you like . and im not gonna hijack or clutter up someones thread.

AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM FIGHTING BESIDE ANY LEO . who stands for whats right .
You just did exactly that.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:39   #68
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do you become one of us?
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Originally Posted by nikerret View Post
Many of us have been with you the whole time, no matter how many of you don't want us on your side.
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
And yes, I'd be one of you guys, should they come for our guns. You have to make a stand at some point, and it would appear that guns are the line in the sand for many Americans, even those of us with badges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikerret View Post
...especially, those of us with badges.
There are many more like you two out here.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:42   #69
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I don't hate the police. But I guess you could say I have a healthy suspicion of the group as a whole. The same as some people have a healthy suspicion of the military, which includes me.

I'm very happy that there are Sherriffs, etc all across the country saying they won't enforce new unconstitutional gun grabs, laws, etc. It's great the a lot of these FOP, etc organizations are speaking up to their superiors to say that they disagree with what is going on. But by his own admission, wprebeck showed us that the FOP SUPPORTED the 94 gun ban. Since then, what we the people see in the news is overwhelming putting LE in a bad light, as their leaders have continued to support things that are unconstitutional. I'm not saying that in KY, it's being supported, but Kentucky doesn't really make the national news much. It's NYC, and Chicago and CA, and A LOT of the big name leadership there supports anti-2A, 4A laws. When you get a steady diet of crap, after a while your mind will start to tell you that it tastes good.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm hopeful that the majority of the LE agencies around the country will stand up, and speak out on a national level, and write letters to the President, Congress, etc that they won't be following any unconstitutional laws. But yes, it'll be much easier to believe that the LE community AS A WHOLE is on the side of 'We the People' when we start seeing these letters of dissent coming from the brass at the top.
How do we, as the beneficiaries of that dissent, make it happen?
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:53   #70
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I don't hate the police. But I guess you could say I have a healthy suspicion of the group[police] as a whole. The same as some people have a healthy suspicion of the military, which includes me.
When someone leads off with, "I don't hate...," it plants the seed that you really might. I struck through that and added "police". See how it reads?

If you are suspicious of police, just say it. Lots of us have some suspicions about some aspect of law enforcement.

Mine is about senior management. Too often leadership stops at middle management. Senior management is either ineffective or overbearing. Neither extreme is conducive to strong leadership. I always ask, How and why did they get the job.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:03   #71
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...It's great the a lot of these FOP, etc organizations are speaking up to their superiors to say that they disagree with what is going on. But by his own admission, wprebeck showed us that the FOP SUPPORTED the 94 gun ban.
What does that say about the group?

Might it say that they realize it was ineffective?

Might it say they realize '94 had no impact on criminal gun violence?

Might it say they see that it did place unconstitutional burdens on law abiding citizens ability to defend themselves with weapons equal to those possessed illegally by criminals?

Might it...?
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:10   #72
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Why don't you write them and ask if they have talked to LE in their areas about doing the same thing? How about you? Have you reached out and had that conversation with your local LE yet?
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Originally Posted by ilgunguygt View Post
No, I havent. I call my Reps and Senators. This may come as a surprise but cops dont make the laws. The right or left only cares about the opinion of police when it supports thier cause. I only care about the opinion of my legislative body.
Yes, you are correct. Those in LE do not make the the laws.

Let me ask you this. Whenever Obama, Bloomberg, Feinstein, Cuomo, those people have press conferences promoting gun control, who generally, beyond their current fondness for children, can be found in the background demonstrating support for their agenda?

And when legislation is introduced at both the Federal and State level, during committee hearings, who testifies, or offers letters of agreement and support for those gun control measures?

Aren't those people the Chiefs and Sheriffs of major jurisdictions and representatives of major law enforcement associations?

Yes, they do not make the law, but their presence indicates, falsely, that they represent all of law enforcement. The politicians who do make the law want everyone to believe that lie. They want people to believe that every officer, deputy, agent they see wants the gun control they, the politicians are proposing.

How do you counter that? It's simple. Have more police and sheriffs organizations come out publicly against gun control.

How do you do that? You contact them. You ask for their support. You ask them to stand beside you. You ask them stand up for they Constitution.

Now, when the politicians call on them to appear as decorations on their agenda cake, they'll say, "No. your legislation will not deter gun violence by the criminals making the headlines on which you feed. It will undermine the Right of self defense of the very citizens, law abiding citizens, you represent..."

Yes, politicians do value support from LE. Our job is to have the overwhelming support on our side, behind politicians against gun control, not Obama's side, not Feinstein's side, not Bloomberg's side, not Cuomo's side.

See why it is important to seek that support from cops?
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:24   #73
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I would like to respectfully disagree with you, Tous. There is that old saying about those who don't learn from history be doomed to repeat it. But sometimes we DO learn, and we can all hope that this is one of those times.

Personally, I'd like to see an organization made of LEO's and citizens that stands up for the rights of all. And I realize that cops are members of the NRA and such. I'm thinking an organization based on citizens and LEO's working together.
Excellent idea.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:41   #74
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Well, start listening. It happens regularly.
Yes, and examples were posted. Some are never going to change their minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikerret View Post
Many of us have been with you the whole time, no matter how many of you don't want us on your side.
Well said.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:41   #75
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Everything is back-doored these days, so the door-to-door confiscation thing isn't even necessary.

There is already a bill in congress that would provide a $2,000 IRS credit if you turn in your weapon. Now, turn up the IRS involvement another notch or two. Suppose the IRS claims you owe some back taxes just about the same time your CCW "permit" is up for renewal. All it takes is a mandate to all the (at first) may issue states. Sheriffs will no longer be permitted to issue or renew a CCW for those with an IRS claim against them. Don't want to comply with the U.S. Treasury, you say? Then forget about any federal funding, at the very least.

Lots of other scenarios like this one. The stick-and-carrot approach will keep law enforcement in line without ever knocking on a single door.
That is scary.

http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-...t?q=h.r.%20226
Quote:
`SEC. 25E. ASSAULT WEAPON TURN-IN CREDIT.

``(a) Allowance of Credit.--
``(1) In general.--In the case of an individual who
surrenders a specified assault weapon to the United States or a
State or local government (or political subdivision thereof) as
part of a Federal, State, or local public safety program to
reduce the number of privately owned weapons, on the election
of the taxpayer there shall be allowed as a credit against the
tax imposed by this chapter an amount equal to $2,000.

``(2) Year credit allowed.--The amount of the credit under
paragraph (1) shall be allowed \1/2\ for the taxable year
during which the assault weapon was so surrendered and \1/2\ in
the next taxable year.

``(b) Special Rules.--
``(1) Weapon must be lawfully possessed.--No credit shall
be allowed under subsection (a) with respect to any specified
assault weapon not lawfully possessed by the taxpayer at the
time the weapon is surrendered.

``(2) Substantiation requirement.--No credit shall be
allowed under subsection (a) for the surrender of any specified
assault weapon unless the taxpayer substantiates the surrender
by a contemporaneous written acknowledgment of the surrender by
the Federal, State, or local governmental entity to which the
weapon is surrendered.

``(3) Denial of double benefit.--The taxpayer may elect the
application of this section with respect to only 1 weapon, and
if such election is made for any taxable year, no deduction
shall be allowed under any other provision of this chapter with
respect to the surrender or contribution of the specified
assault weapon.
1 weapon, 1 time, receive credit 50% one year, 50% next year earns you registration with the IRS that you may own more than one """"Assault"""" weapon.

I'll pass this along to my friends who do own """"Assault"""" weapons.
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