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Old 02-02-2013, 09:11   #101
bac1023
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Originally Posted by AgentM79 View Post
Categorically untrue. As of now, S&W is still making their Gen3 metal frame guns for LE contract orders. The guns are made at their facility in Houlton, Maine (where they also make their excellent handcuffs). I'm from NY, and the 3914DAO and 5946 are still made for NYPD. The local gun stores stock the 3914DAO's for NYPD off-duty purchase. I've also seen new-manufacture 6946's available for local sale (also used here in NY, by NYC Corrections). Also, about a year ago S&W announced a contract sale of metal-framed .45ACP's (I don't recall which model) for a Police agency which wanted to continue the use of these guns. If you REALLY want a metal-framed S&W, certain models can still be had. You'll pay a Sig Sauer price, though.
Well, you know what I mean...

They don't make them for the masses anymore. They even stopped building their best steel Performance Center autos.

Sad
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Old 02-02-2013, 13:35   #102
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I feel like Smith never made an auto that was so damn awesome that I'd have them keep making it for my police department so I didn't have to switch to something else lol.

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Old 02-02-2013, 18:01   #103
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Barrett's book on Glock is a useful referent here...and there was a repeat of his interview with Terri Gross (sp) on "Fresh Air" the other day.

Barrett sd the Glock costs betw $80-$90 to produce. Gaston wanted to sell the fun cheap, since his costs were low. The US marketing guy...last name Walter, forget the first name, sd that wouldn't work in the US where price is viewed as an indicator of quality. So Walter hatched the idea of a high list price but steep discounts fo LEO departments.

Then the '94 gun ban kicked in, but Glock saw that coming and had a HUGE stockpile of pre-ban weapons and mags warehoused...THEN they had the LEO tradein program providing MORE pre-ban weapons to the secondary market...

Love the Glock or not, you have to admire the marketing and sales methods.
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Old 02-02-2013, 19:35   #104
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Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
I've owned my Sig P225 for over 20 years and it has zero rust on it and has never jammed once.
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Old 02-02-2013, 22:17   #105
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Originally Posted by AgentM79 View Post
Categorically untrue. As of now, S&W is still making their Gen3 metal frame guns for LE contract orders. The guns are made at their facility in Houlton, Maine (where they also make their excellent handcuffs). I'm from NY, and the 3914DAO and 5946 are still made for NYPD. The local gun stores stock the 3914DAO's for NYPD off-duty purchase. I've also seen new-manufacture 6946's available for local sale (also used here in NY, by NYC Corrections). Also, about a year ago S&W announced a contract sale of metal-framed .45ACP's (I don't recall which model) for a Police agency which wanted to continue the use of these guns. If you REALLY want a metal-framed S&W, certain models can still be had. You'll pay a Sig Sauer price, though.
Categorically true! Order a Model 5906 and let us know how it is. That was a normal DA/SA 9mm auto pistol, in 1993.

Look at an old S&W catalog, about 1993, and see all the different models they offered, to just any ordinary joe, with money. They were about, in Glock's price range. Most of us normal people can't buy any of those old 3rd gen S&Ws. I, personally wouldn't have a gun that any NY organization would want.

Sig-Sauer, after Glock, is the most overpriced piece of junk made. IMO. Actually, I'll take a Glock anytime, over the sig. The best thing, with the sig name on it is the 357 SIG cartridge.

bac1023 actually understood the post, thanks bac!
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:31   #106
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Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post
Categorically true! Order a Model 5906 and let us know how it is. That was a normal DA/SA 9mm auto pistol, in 1993.

Look at an old S&W catalog, about 1993, and see all the different models they offered, to just any ordinary joe, with money. They were about, in Glock's price range. Most of us normal people can't buy any of those old 3rd gen S&Ws. I, personally wouldn't have a gun that any NY organization would want.

Sig-Sauer, after Glock, is the most overpriced piece of junk made. IMO. Actually, I'll take a Glock anytime, over the sig. The best thing, with the sig name on it is the 357 SIG cartridge.

bac1023 actually understood the post, thanks bac!
Happy Superbowl, AustinTx! The point I was trying to convey was that "new" metal-framed S&W Gen3 semi-autos ARE still being made. Granted, the offerings available to the general public are a far cry from the days of "gun-of-the-week" and the 1990's. However, it's not hard to see why S&W has pretty much "shelved" the line. Frankly, no one was buying Gen3's anymore. Glock had firmly kicked S&W to the curb in LE holsters (or rather, into the Distributor Trade-In Program). S&W's polymer framed offerings were a disaster for the company (the Glock "settlement" over the Sigma, for example, and the S&W/Walther SW99 "hybrids" that no-one seemed to want. Yes, Sigma-series guns generate gun show revenue, and were purchased in quantity by the US Government for use by our "allies"). Even though S&W upgraded the Gen3 line with the "tactical" enhancements, the guns still had slide-mounted safety levers, magazine disconnects, fitted parts (extractors, sear levers), slide components that required removal of the rear sight to access, and a trigger play spring that could usually be counted upon to depart the frame within 3000 rounds (the CHP actually specified that this part, vestigal in a DAO, be omitted from their 4046's). On top of that, Gen3 S&W's couldn't compete with Glocks, price-wise, even 10 years ago. The Gen3's were still eminently shootable guns, and I'll say this - as a now-expired armorer for S&W TDA Gen3's, and a firearms instructor for an agency that transitioned from S&W to Glock 7 years ago - S&W tried HARD to make guns for everyone. They made 9mm's, 40's and .45's in alloy and steel, and in different frame sizes/barrel lengths. They purpose-built the 1076 for a major federal agency. They modified early Gen3's with frame-mounted decockers. They even developed a way to retrofit TDA guns with spring loaded slide-mounted decockers. Then came CNC improvements and the "tactical" series guns. With ALL that, Glock still won, and at little more than half the price.

It's not even that Glocks are BETTER guns than Gen3 S&W's, per se. But, Glock pistols have half the parts count and don't require a bench vise and an entire box of specialized tools to work on. The fact that Glock pistols are more durable can't be disputed, though.

I'll respectfully disagree with you about Sig. In .45ACP, the P220 does things for me that the G21/G30 can't. Sure, I paid damned near $800 for the pride-of-ownership of a used-but-mint W.German-made gun, and a small fortune for extra magazines. But for me, it was worth it.

I could easily obtain a used Gen3 S&W 5906 locally if I wanted one. A 5946, even more easily. There's a S&W Distributor in Roslyn, NY (Standard Law http://www.standardlaw.us/) that carries both S&W LE trades and new-production guns. Very nice folks - I just bought a nice used S&W 681 from them yesterday. Anyone looking for a used Gen3 S&W, or newer NYPD-spec S&W, should give them a call. Although I'm glad my agency doesn't require the NY-2 trigger spring, I can't fault NYPD's logic in specifying the features they do in their service and off-duty weapons. They transitioned an enormous police force from revolver to semi-auto, and specified that the triggers of their semi-autos, both on-duty and off-duty, approximate that of a S&W or Ruger DAO revolver. They continue this line-of-reasoning to this day, and continually T&E weapon designs. They believe in commonality-of-training, and get into a lot of gun fights. They know a thing or two about the topic. Their armorers maintain a staggering number of service and off-duty guns - including long guns. It would be hard to argue that the S&W 5946 isn't a great police gun, and that a 3914DAO isn't a great back-up/off duty to complement it. Likewise a G19 supplemented by a G26 - even if they have NY-2 springs installed. I WOULD prefer that the 3914DAO have the older-style S&W "improved DAO" mechanism rather than a full-travel DAO pull, but that's what is currently available locally in a new-production metal-framed S&W.

It's a long post, but it's freezing outside today..........
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Old 02-03-2013, 23:47   #107
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AgentM79

It's a dirty shame, but S&W was driven into bankruptcy by the US gun buying public. People boycotted S&W, after they signed some agreement with the US slum building agency, under Bill Clinton. The English company sold out to the current owners, I don't even know, or care who they are, anymore. They no longer make anything, I need.

People got pretty mad about the high-cap mag ban, to drive S&W under. Bill Ruger was in on the 10 round mag deal, too, but people didn't seem to mind about Ruger. He said no one needed more than 10 rounds. Ruger wouldn't make mags for the Mini-14 that held more then 10 rounds. His heirs have fixed that. A lot of American workers lost their jobs at S&W and I haven't quite figured out how I feel about that yet. I think folks, cut off their nose, to spite their face. I didn't have a dog, in that scrap, fortunately.

I don't think you can even get S&W revolvers with the big square target grip frame, now. You also get a hole, in the frame, now.

It's just, water under the bridge.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:17   #108
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AustinTx, you echo my sentiments exactly. I'm a huge fan of "old" S&W, and my (relatively) short list of "forever" guns include a pair of .357 K-Frames - a 4" M13-2 (sq. butt, pinned and recessed, the way G-d intended them to be) and a rare 3" M66. Because I'm loathe to put much "mileage" on either gun, I bought a police-trade-in M681 on Saturday from the distributor I mentioned. Outside of some holster wear, it's mechanically tight and has a shot-smooth action that no gunsmith could replicate. And, I have an entire box of square butt grips from various manufacturers that I will be trying out on it once it's cleaned up (including a set of Pachmayr "Jordan Troopers" made of plastic - I always liked that grip, although it's no longer made by Pachmayr).

I remember how the shooting public punished S&W after they signed onto the "It's a crime, Bill". That was a huge blow to the company, which was subsequently sold (as you know) to a gun lock maker. Hence, the prevailing presence of the hated "Hillary Hole" on their revolvers (though by popular demand they are now omitting it from some J-frames - perhaps there's hope yet). Although Ruger was in favor of 10-round magazines, at least he didn't wreck the GP100 and SP101.

"New" S&W has it's hands full with the M&P pistol line, as they have finally built the "anti-Glock" that they so desperately sought in the Sigma and SW99. At least LE customers can get a polymer frame gun with an optional mag disconnect or manual safety, and that doesn't require a trigger pull for take-down. They have yet to really put a dent in Glock's market share, though, but will eventually do so by default (especially because Sig's P250 was stillborn, and Beretta's PX pistols have elicited almost no LE interest).

Too much work (forging, casting, finishing, fitting, gauging, assembly) goes into the making of a metal-framed gun to make them price-competitive with Glocks. That's why "metal" Sig pistols cost 2x what Glock pistols cost, and why S&W couldn't competitively continue making their AIP/Third Generation /Tactical guns at an affordable price point. That's my take on it. At least we'll still have LE trade-in's for awhile longer..........
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:30   #109
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Glocks, to me anyway, are actually quite a bit overpriced when looking at comparable brands from S&W, Ruger, S/A, & Beretta.

And SIG has a P250 (that uninformed Glockers laugh at) that is $399.
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