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Old 02-03-2013, 08:22   #21
glock39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwlongshot View Post
Your statements are mostly true. BUT taken slightly out of context, there are also a couple schools of thought here...

First off, what is the purpose/use for this firearm?

Because something for personal defense is different that a hunting firearm. Mostly concerning over/under penetration. By and large the 357 is a personal defense caliber while the 30-30 is a light game hunting caliber.

The 357 levers WILL reliably feed most all 38 special loadings, OTHER THAN FULL WAD CUTTERS. Full wad cutters can be used if loaded single and do in fact shoot very well in my own guns.

YES, for hunting, the use of a hollow point, when fired thru a longer carbine/rifle barrel in 357. 41 or 44 mag calibers will exhib shallow penetration and bullet desegregation. BUT simply utilizing soft point bullets eliminates this issue. I have shot a number of deer using both HP and SP ammo. From both handgun and rifle length barrels. The SP ammo is head and shoulders better with thru and thru penetration unless major bones are impacted.
BUT, same HP for personal protection will stop over penetration and collateral damages. All while imparting fight stopping prefromance on two legged vermin. Even for PD uses, I would avoid the lightest bullet weights. the 158s are about perfect and most widely available. These light loadings are excellent for small game as would be the 38 spl loadings.

Also, while you are correct velocity increases are experienced. In a magnum, 300-400 fps is closer to the truth. (I have choreographed MOST all available) A full 2000 fps is a bit exaggerated. Its nit picking I know, but 1800fps is about tops UNLESS you hand load. My own 158g XTP FP loading with Lil Gun powder, almost reaches 2000fps from my 18'' barrel Marlin. This level of 357 mag preformance is every bit equal and even superior to the 30-30 150g and it even has a heavier, larger diameter bullet making preformance on game likely BETTER with the 357 Magnum!!! All with slightly less recoil and muzzle blast.

The 30-30 WILL over-penetrate two legged vermin at any angle and with any part impacted. This is NOT a worry with a 158 HP form a 357 Mag. This 30-30 penetration is desirable in a hunting situation. Conserning HP 30-30 ammo, I have not seen the Winchester HP's for some time, but even if you have some they will NOT preform as a 357 Mag HP will. They are still designed for hunting use and WILL COMPLETELY penetrate any person and likely still go thru walls and into by standers or sleeping house mates...

For a balance of both, I feel either will suffice as long as your aware of the over penetration of the 30-30 is used in dewlings with innocent bystanders around.

Good luck,
CW
Thanks for the information. I may need to rethink my choice. I would frankly rather have a 357 rifle, to go with a 3 inch SP101 I've already got.

It is my sincerest hope that the gun would never be used for anything other than targets, tin cans and maybe occasional small pest control. But defense is definite concern (the world does not seem to be getting more peaceful).

I knew that 38 wadcutters would have to be single loaded. But do pretty much all the 357 rifles feed other factory 38's OK? Or can they be easily tweaked if they have a problem feeding 38's?
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:22   #22
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There's a lot of WTF in this thread.

Nobody hunts with hollow points and I don't even know of a hollow point load for the 30-30 and I've been shooting for 50 years. Anyone who hunts deer with a hollow point 357 is an idiot.

Second, while the idea of interchangeable ammo for rifle and pistol may sound like a good idea, there really is no point to it. Use your pistol which is easy and less powerful for close up self defense, and use a rifle in a rifle cartridge for longer distances. Using a pistol cartridge in a rifle negates the advantage of having a rifle, i.e, more power at longer range.

I have several pistol caliber carbines which are fun to shoot but if I need a rifle I am going to choose one in a rifle cartridge. I had a 357 mag lever action once. Never could figure out what it was good for other than playing cowboy.

Finally, the world is filled with short lever action rifles without having to resort to some POS gimmick gun from Mossberg.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:39   #23
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Why don't you just get a regular 30-30 with wood stocks rather than buy this and swap everything out? Maybe I missed something though....


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To steal a ARFCOM saying.........1st post and all that.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:17   #24
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Originally Posted by Cwlongshot View Post

BUT simply utilizing soft point bullets eliminates this issue.

My own 158g XTP FP loading with Lil Gun powder, almost reaches 2000fps from my 18'' barrel Marlin. This level of 357 mag preformance is every bit equal and even superior to the 30-30 150g and it even has a heavier, larger diameter bullet making preformance on game likely BETTER with the 357 Magnum!!!


All with slightly less recoil, more rounds in magazine and less muzzle blast.


CW


game-set-match


I use the XTP flatpoint 158g over Blue Dot but otherwise you have the perfect argument of the .357 lever over the 30.30 for a truck gun.

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Old 02-03-2013, 10:25   #25
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Not that Im big on that Marlin, but if you paint what ever it is, in the pattern of your favorite stomp around cammies, You can wear the gun slung, and even at pretty close distances, most people dont even notice you have it on. What the gun is, is pretty much meaningless.


Same stock as the Marlin, slightly different gun.

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Old 02-03-2013, 10:52   #26
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Durocoat , or the Krylon Camo paints are fine and you can do it yourself. Just rough the stock up with steel wool or very fine sandpaper. There are some video on YouTube on how to do it

I have had several lever actions over the years. A Savage 99, Marlin 336 and Winchester 88. All were fine guns. A consideration is with the Winchester 94 style is its a bit more difficult to mount a scope, but doable. Hornady makes a good lever action round I am not sure all,the calibers.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:51   #27
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There's a lot of WTF in this thread.

Nobody hunts with hollow points and I don't even know of a hollow point load for the 30-30 and I've been shooting for 50 years. Anyone who hunts deer with a hollow point 357 is an idiot.

Second, while the idea of interchangeable ammo for rifle and pistol may sound like a good idea, there really is no point to it. Use your pistol which is easy and less powerful for close up self defense, and use a rifle in a rifle cartridge for longer distances. Using a pistol cartridge in a rifle negates the advantage of having a rifle, i.e, more power at longer range.

I have several pistol caliber carbines which are fun to shoot but if I need a rifle I am going to choose one in a rifle cartridge. I had a 357 mag lever action once. Never could figure out what it was good for other than playing cowboy.

Finally, the world is filled with short lever action rifles without having to resort to some POS gimmick gun from Mossberg.
Strong words my friend...
There are MANY good HP bullets specifically designed for big game hunting. As an example, Barnes has built a company making HP ammo designed for the largest game the world has to offer...
Speaking of 357Mag ammo used in a carbine barrel on game. I would and am more tactful... but I agree.
BUT using a 357Mag from a handgun, heavier HP ammo is VERY acceptable and desirable!

http://www.winchester.com/products/r.../X30306BP.aspx

Why most peoples first reaction when hearing a 357Mag used for anything but people or targets is a negative is beyond me... Simply looking at the ballistics and knowing the bullets diameter will give you all the info thats needed. The argument that a 30-30 has more range is a valid one as its bullet is much more stream lined and will carry that ''power'' farther. But inside its useful range, (Limited because of the short fat 357 Mag bullet) as stated the 357Mag with proper bullets and load is SUPERIOR to the 30-30 Winchester. That meas that all you know as acceptable for the 30-30 is and can be applied to the 357Mag in a carbine... That's the facts.

I don't much care for the looks of this Mossberg either. But lets not run down this path as its a slippery slope... LOOKS don't alone make for a bad, evil, or non functional it simply makes it a different gun.

CW
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:59   #28
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Have a 357mag Marlin - I would not take a deer past 75 yards with it. I would not take a black bear with it.

Also, good like finding one for under $1,500 - even the remlins are selling for close to 2k on Gun broker.

That should be a big factor in your decision as depending on how much you shoot the extra cost of 30-30 ammo doesn't seem too bad when you can buy a 30-30 for under $400..
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:24   #29
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I have a Marlin 357mag lever gun and let me tell you. That thing rocks! It'll shoot just about any semi and/or full hallow point round and hand loading gives it much potential. I loaded some 110 grain Gold Dots in 357 and short a big ol fat squirrel in my ma's corral from about 60 yards, just flipped the rear sight down and aimed between the sight screws and that fat booger did a couple of cart wheel in the air. Went down and found him completely hollowed out. I think all the other squirrels saw that and just packed up and left as Ma had a squirrel investation up until that time. 125 grain Gold Dots exploded water jugs. Anyway, if one is utilitarian minded, 357 mag/38 spec may be more flexible.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:34   #30
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One of the Wesson family of S&W back in the 30s used a .357 (6" IIRC) to take just about every kind of game on earth including most of the large clawed African stuff.

It may not be a .50 BMG but it's not a wimp load.
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Old 02-03-2013, 17:12   #31
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There are a lot of nice Winchester 94's out there that need a home.
While I haven't shot mine it a long time, I wouldn't get rid of it either. I have also never handled a better lever gun.
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Old 02-03-2013, 20:09   #32
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Anyone who hunts deer with a hollow point 357 is an idiot.
The 8 point buck whose antlers are on my wall didn't have much to say to this idiot after he was shot with a .357 180grn Winchester hollowpoint.
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Old 02-03-2013, 21:15   #33
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There's a lot of WTF in this thread.

Anyone who hunts deer with a hollow point 357 is an idiot.



.....we have plenty of idiots out here in the high desert of Oregon it seems
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:47   #34
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What do you guys think of a lever gun in 357/38 so that I don't have to stock up on another caliber? The logistics is a concern as well as the fact that the 30-30 ain't exactly the cheapest ammo either.
It will cost you twice as much as a 30-30. You can buy a lot of ammo for $400.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:55   #35
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It will cost you twice as much as a 30-30. You can buy a lot of ammo for $400.
Understood... but actually, for me, I wouldn't have to buy any ammo. Got tons of 357/38 ammo. I have a few revolvers in that caliber and bought tons of ammo of all sorts of weights and designs, including some +P magnum stuff which I had tried once in my Python... and my hand let me know to not do it too often.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:13   #36
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Understood... but actually, for me, I wouldn't have to buy any ammo. Got tons of 357/38 ammo. I have a few revolvers in that caliber and bought tons of ammo of all sorts of weights and designs, including some +P magnum stuff which I had tried once in my Python... and my hand let me know to not do it too often.
That is a different story entirely. Plus the action on the pistol carbines is scaled appropriately so it makes a lighter gun.

I wouldn't mind having one in .44 mag to go with my Model 29, but I just can't see paying the price. Perhaps I will stumble across one at a great deal (it does happen).
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:19   #37
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How about you just buy a 45/70 Guide gun and be done with it... That looks a lot less menacing even though it is much more menacing Its not expensive either.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firear...bore/1895G.asp
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:58   #38
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Yesterday I checked out the local Gander Mountain. The only lever action 357 they had left was a Rossi Ranch Hand:

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=

I had briefly considered one of these earlier, but dismissed it as a range toy. The Ranch Hand is far too clunky to use as a serious close quarters pistol. But while I was there, I asked the clerk to let me handle one. Somewhat to my surprise, I discovered that was possible to hold it against my shoulder. Sort of. Very awkward, and only the bottom point of the stock was actually touching. I suspect that a shotgun style shoulder pad and/or a removable recoil pad on the pistol would make a noticeable improvement. But I actually had a usable sight picture and it was far more stable than holding a pistol out with two hands. Ballistically the 12 inch barrel gives most of the advantages of a carbine, and if it could be shot more accurately than a pistol...

The Ranch Hand is legally a pistol, so it would usually have to be carried concealed. But at 24 inches, it's small enough to fit inside a backpack, gym bag or whatever much easier than a 34 inch carbine. Definitely a compromise in shoot-ability, but there's a lot to be said for a "long" gun that can be carried inconspicuously. If it was spotted, it's even more "cowboy" than a lever action rifle.
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Old 02-06-2013, 14:13   #39
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I would imagine you could hold the Ranch Hand or similar type guns up to your cheek and acquire a more or less normal cheek weld, even though the stock isnt against your shoulder, and have decent results.

Ive done this with my AK's with side folders, and a couple of SMG's with the stocks collapsed, and they all shot quite well are reasonable distances.

You just get a cheek weld where you normally do with the stocked version or stock out, and the only thing missing, is shoulder contact.
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Old 02-06-2013, 23:13   #40
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Thought about the Ranch Hand but not as a concealable gun by any means... but rather, like you said, more of a backpack or truck gun.
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