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Old 02-06-2013, 10:44   #51
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Gougers can be and are prosecuted, when it is gouging. 5 or 10 bucks for a bottle of water or bag of ice after a disaster, 200 for plywood when a hurricane is on the way is gouging. Charging what the market will bear for items that are not necessary is free enterprise.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:47   #52
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So you are saying that I am not free to oppose your ideals until... when?
Never. Where do you get the idea that I'm someone who says what you're free to do?

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And i noticed you are a US HERE kind of guy that needs to throw stones when you have a crowd behind you supporting you.
Grammar aside, no one's behind me.

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Be unafraid of my statements.
OK

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They are only my opinions that I am, as you put it "entitled" to.
I didn't say you were entitled to anything.

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No one on this or any other 4m knows that any better than me. It is my opinion, and it ain't always right or perfect.
On that point we agree. Yay!
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:47   #53
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All gougers are opportunistic scum hurting this country by driving up prices, and selling their soul for money. You are in trouble if and when the stuff hits the fan. In your twisted mind it is ok to get yours and screw everyone else. I know you are not able to see this but it is not free enterprise. Free enterprise is not driven by greedy parasites but created by the hard work and risk of true business people who contribute to the economy. They create jobs for other people not take an advantage for money without hurting others. Gougers are kinda like a drug pusher but you can't get arrested for it.
Buddy, you need to take a couple of big steps back and breathe deeply for a moment.

You obviously have some strong feelings on this subject, but they are feelings, not facts. I think you are confusing free market economics with socialism. The free market system is based on supply and demand. Supply and demand, in balance. If demand goes up or down, balance is lost. Therefore supply must move to restore balance. That is how it works. Demand drives the process, but supply helps to regulate demand through price.

I will say once again that we are not talking about life-sustaining commodities here. We are discussing wants, not needs, not must-haves. If buyers weren't buying, sellers would lower their prices to attract them. Buyers have the choice to buy and buyers set the market. Deny the facts and reality if you like. This is simply how it works. Eric
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:22   #54
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Buddy, you need to take a couple of big steps back and breathe deeply for a moment.

You obviously have some strong feelings on this subject, but they are feelings, not facts. I think you are confusing free market economics with socialism. The free market system is based on supply and demand. Supply and demand, in balance. If demand goes up or down, balance is lost. Therefore supply must move to restore balance. That is how it works. Demand drives the process, but supply helps to regulate demand through price.

I will say once again that we are not talking about life-sustaining commodities here. We are discussing wants, not needs, not must-haves. If buyers weren't buying, sellers would lower their prices to attract them. Buyers have the choice to buy and buyers set the market. Deny the facts and reality if you like. This is simply how it works. Eric
Please read the full portion of this quote above. I was not finished and posted it by accident. sorry if I offended anyone. I will never be able to see gouging as what free enterprise was meant to be
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:29   #55
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OOps!!! did i not pass your seniority test. 4m's are for free discussion.
Seriously, who is too lazy to type out "forum"?
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:32   #56
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Well, looks like we have a future Democrat politician in our midst.

You FEEL like Person A has something that should belong to Person B and FEEL like something should be done about it. We got Obamacare shoved down our throats on this logic. (Since the dawn of man, people with more Wampum got better medical care than people with no Wampum. Still happens today. Medical care was not designed to be equal.)


And then you pull the "I'm AOK" and the "I expected as much here" lines??? If you expected this - why did you bother posting it???? This isn't a debate. You are just flat-out wrong. It's like arguing if wolves should raise my first-born. You may have an OPINION that they should, that doesn't make this a debate.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:33   #57
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Seriously, who is too lazy to type out "forum"?


Worse is, on an IOS device, that stupid ' sign is a PITA to get to. After a couple of years on them, even on a keyboard, I avoid them like the plague.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:34   #58
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All gougers are opportunistic scum hurting this country by driving up prices, .......
You really shouldn't stop taking your meds without talking it over with your Doctor first.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:36   #59
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post


Worse is, on an IOS device, that stupid ' sign is a PITA to get to. After a couple of years on them, even on a keyboard, I avoid them like the plague.
Not to mention that "4m's" is not an appropriate plural.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:41   #60
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Please read the full portion of this quote above. I was not finished and posted it by accident. sorry if I offended anyone. I will never be able to see gouging as what free enterprise was meant to be
OK, let's say taking 4 packets of Sweet & Low a day will cure and prevent cancer.

And let's say the current production of S&L is only about 100 million units per day.

Let's also say it takes the S&L factory 6 months to tool-up to the 1.2 trillion packets a day they need to supply the country. (Screw the rest of the world.)

What you'd like is for everyone to keep paying 3c or so per packet. And then just whomever gets the packets will get em.

What if I have cancer. I'd pay $50 a day for them things! Wouldn't I?

How do you propose, in a free market society, to divvy up the packets that are made per day? Pass a law that only cancer patients can own S&L? Force price limits? Create a one-packet-per-day limit on people with a S&L card to track who's bought what when? Make it illegal to sell S&L without a government license???

The bottom line, as Eric mentioned, is that free market is a perfect system. When bombarded with high demand and low supply, prices jump drastically to control the flow. Once demand drops and/or supply rises, prices normalize and life goes back to normal.

Why do we care about what Person X is charging for a AR15???? If I need an AR15, I'm stuck paying that price if I need it RIGHT NOW. (Who needs an AR RIGHT NOW anyways?) And if I don't, I wont' buy one. It's that simple. You are arguing that people can't charge what they want for magazines, guns and bullets. We are saying, "If you want to make a list, go for it. We can't be bothered."
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:45   #61
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Waitaminute. There's a list?
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:47   #62
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
Well, looks like we have a future Democrat politician in our midst.

You FEEL like Person A has something that should belong to Person B and FEEL like something should be done about it. We got Obamacare shoved down our throats on this logic. (Since the dawn of man, people with more Wampum got better medical care than people with no Wampum. Still happens today. Medical care was not designed to be equal.)


And then you pull the "I'm AOK" and the "I expected as much here" lines??? If you expected this - why did you bother posting it???? This isn't a debate. You are just flat-out wrong. It's like arguing if wolves should raise my first-born. You may have an OPINION that they should, that doesn't make this a debate.
It may be you watch too many movies. I never said anything in the line of entitlements. For the last time I AM NOT A LIBERAL ENTITLEMENT LOVING DEMOCRAT. That came out of your mind as a Judgement on me. Wrong again.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:48   #63
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Free market.
if someone had bought up a bunch of AKs 15 years ago for $150 a peice... but AKs were selling for $400 before new town, should that have sold them for $150 since that's what they paid? Or should they sell them for what people are willing to buy them for?

pretty simple to me
now, if a business chooses to keep prices constant in hopes the consumers will notice and have loyalty to them, then that is fine too, it's their business and may have the intended affect. but selling something at market price isn't gouging. if people are willing to pay $2000 for an AR and you have some you are wiling to part with, why wouldn't you.

gougers is a term applied to the prepared by the unprepared.

I'm sure if SHTF and society collapses you all will trade any goods you may have for the same rate at which you could trade them today, right? right now a can of chef boy r dee is, idk, 80 cents about the same as a cheap notebook... so when SHTF and food skyrockets you would still trade that can of food for a notebook? No, you wouldn't, because food is much more valuable than paper in a collapsed society where no one knows if they will eat the next day. people will trade cars/motorcycles/gold/silver/anything for food. but you guys wouldn't capitalize on that, you'd take the moral high ground and sell the food for what you got it for, right? capitalizing on an increased demand is gouging, remember...
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:52   #64
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It may be you watch too many movies. I never said anything in the line of entitlements. For the last time I AM NOT A LIBERAL ENTITLEMENT LOVING DEMOCRAT. That came out of your mind as a Judgement on me. Wrong again.
So outside of your feelings and your list, nothing is coming of this. Why are we even here????
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:01   #65
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so a "conservative" is making a "list" of free market capitalists?

so sick of hearing about "gougers" and "hoarders" from so called conservatives
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:06   #66
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Free market.
if someone had bought up a bunch of AKs 15 years ago for $150 a peice... but AKs were selling for $400 before new town, should that have sold them for $150 since that's what they paid? Or should they sell them for what people are willing to buy them for?

pretty simple to me
now, if a business chooses to keep prices constant in hopes the consumers will notice and have loyalty to them, then that is fine too, it's their business and may have the intended affect. but selling something at market price isn't gouging. if people are willing to pay $2000 for an AR and you have some you are wiling to part with, why wouldn't you.

gougers is a term applied to the prepared by the unprepared.

I'm sure if SHTF and society collapses you all will trade any goods you may have for the same rate at which you could trade them today, right? right now a can of chef boy r dee is, idk, 80 cents about the same as a cheap notebook... so when SHTF and food skyrockets you would still trade that can of food for a notebook? No, you wouldn't, because food is much more valuable than paper in a collapsed society where no one knows if they will eat the next day. people will trade cars/motorcycles/gold/silver/anything for food. but you guys wouldn't capitalize on that, you'd take the moral high ground and sell the food for what you got it for, right? capitalizing on an increased demand is gouging, remember...
i agree with you. I was not talking about an Ak for $150 four years ago. I am talking about a $350 Keltech POS 2000 selling for $950 in a matter of months. Gouging is when you overprice, taking advantage of the situation. Like in N.Y where they were doubling the price of plywood knowing people would buy it. I need nothing I can think of in life. I don't like seeing our country going the route it is taking. People defend gouging so they can feel good about it.

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Old 02-06-2013, 13:58   #67
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I'm an officer on the board at our sportsmen's club. When I shared that statement with them they all laughed. I am not in any way an entitlement supporter. For 30 years I bought and sold houses, rented houses, and remodeled houses and retired at age 54. Before that, I worked in a factory as a laborer for 2 years. I never received an entitlement in my life. As for your harsh judgmental statement about me, it comes from the same place your ideals come from: Your own mind. Which by the way needs no basis for the truth, as long as you believe it. As far as government trying to take our freedoms away, try to start a business, you will learn that they already have. If you work for someone else that may be a hard concept to understand.
Why do you price gouge renters on your properties?


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Old 02-06-2013, 14:00   #68
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Waitaminute. There's a list?
Yes. The next time there's a run on guns n ammo you'll want a copy of it because THEY will have inventory b


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Old 02-06-2013, 14:03   #69
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All gougers are opportunistic scum hurting this country by driving up prices, and selling their soul for money. You are in trouble if and when the stuff hits the fan. In your twisted mind it is ok to get yours and screw everyone else. I know you are not able to see this but it is not free enterprise. Free enterprise is not driven by greedy parasites but created by the hard work and risk of true business people who contribute to the economy. They create jobs for other people not take an advantage for money without hurting others. Gougers are kinda like a drug pusher but you can't get arrested for it. As for sour grapes, I have none. I do Very well as I stated I retired at age 54. I just love this country and hate the things people do without caring about the welfare of others and calling that conservative enterprise. It is not a conservative position to "Get mine at any cost to everyone else" It is about keeping our freedoms and preserving the constitution. I am not the enemy, I'm just saying think about it from another perspective and don't get offended at my opinion. Usually people get offended if the shoe fits. I am not offended at what anyone thinks about me or how I look at this subject. I expected this kind of response. Some people attack out of instinct to being offended. Others simply state their opinion without character attacks on someone they never even met. You may like me and just disagree with me on this one and only point. I would venture to guess that you and I agree on most other things.
You sound a little communist


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Old 02-06-2013, 14:20   #70
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I do believe another Cuban economist landed in the wrong place again.
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Old 02-06-2013, 14:58   #71
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Right on Eric !

You just hit the nail on the head Eric.

The cattle stampeded and went for borke.

MY 2cents,I was at thye Local Acdemy sports here in Columbia SC,I was watching this HUsband and Wife looking at RIfles and Pistols.I said to myself,I dont want to be around when they go shooting.You could tell just by watching that this couple,Nither one of them knew a thing about shooting a gun.I even witnessed the LAdy turn the muzzle toward her own face.How dumb.

I would bet a good many of the people that went crazy buying were the same!

Jeff



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I disagree with the OP. the free market system works. It only fails when people start screwing with how it works.

The OP has this matter backwards. A large group of people are a high-strung, panicky, mostly mindless creature. If spooked it will stampede, just like a herd of cattle. Well, that shooting started a stampede. A stampede of panic-buying. What reins in a buying stampede? Well, higher prices do, don't they? How long do you think the buying trend would continue unchecked if the prices didn't rise?

Do people make money in the process? Damned straight. The people who had the resources and initiative and maybe the luck to make some money will do so. They spend the time and they take the risk. If they are wrong, if the bubble breaks, if they are unlucky, they lose. No one will help them recover from their loss. They took their chances. If they succeed, if they find a product and willing customers, they make money. That is how the system works. Buyers drive the market, not sellers.

Price gouging usually refers to profiteering on life-sustaining commodities, like food, medicine, fuel, etc. It may be argued that guns may be used to save lives, but they do not fall into that category. What changed between 13 December and 14 December that made it absolutely vital for so many people to have guns and ammo? I am guessing that most people who think about such things, thought themselves adequately armed and provisioned on 13 December. A lot of people panicked on 14 December and the run was on, but nothing changed that made more guns and ammo a matter of dire emergency. People stampeded.

This is not a matter of evil profiteers keeping food out of the mouths of babies. It is a matter of some people with some forethought and resourcefulness turning a profit off of a bunch of cattle that have decided they desperately need something they didn't want enough to buy two months ago and in doing so, they help to stop the stampede. The buyers are driving this, folks. Eric
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Old 02-06-2013, 15:12   #72
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If people want it bad enough they will pay. I thought ahead and purchased items years ago.
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Old 02-06-2013, 15:16   #73
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I'm an officer on the board at our sportsmen's club. When I shared that statement with them they all laughed. I am not in any way an entitlement supporter. For 30 years I bought and sold houses, rented houses, and remodeled houses and retired at age 54. Before that, I worked in a factory as a laborer for 2 years. I never received an entitlement in my life. As for your harsh judgmental statement about me, it comes from the same place your ideals come from: Your own mind. Which by the way needs no basis for the truth, as long as you believe it. As far as government trying to take our freedoms away, try to start a business, you will learn that they already have. If you work for someone else that may be a hard concept to understand.
My ideals come from my life experiences, I was self employed for 20 years and have also been someone's employee. I'm guessing if your "club" laughed they too share the same definition of a free economy as you do. These prices you claim are gouging come from the same place you claim I get my ideals....your mind. Thankfully for the rest of us your idea of fair prices are just that......your's. I'm sure a government program will be along shortly to guarantee you firearms, ammo and magazines at "your" fair price. BTW, I'm not judging you, my observations come from the facts you presented, you feel the current pricing structure and what is affecting it is unfair, therefore you feel you are entitled to cheaper items......the market be damned.
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:13   #74
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I was talking about 1987 "Black Friday. The two are connected. Look at the link below. I am well aware of the Hunt Bro's as well as almost everyone is. Black Monday refers to Monday October 19, 1987, when stock markets around the world crashed, shedding a huge value in a very short time. The crash began in Hong Kong and spread west to Europe, hitting the United States after other markets had already declined by a significant margin. The Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) dropped by 508 points to 1738.74 (22.61%).[1]
By the end of October, stock markets in Hong Kong had fallen 45.5%, Australia 41.8%, Spain 31%, the United Kingdom 26.45%, the United States 22.68%, and Canada 22.5%. New Zealand's market was hit especially hard, falling about 60% from its 1987 peak, and taking several years to recover.[2] (The terms Black Monday and Black Tuesday are also applied to October 28 and 29, 1929, which occurred after Black Thursday on October 24, which started the Stock Market Crash of 1929. In Australia and New Zealand the 1987 crash is also referred to as Black Tuesday because of the timezone difference.) The Black Monday decline was the largest one-day percentage decline in the Dow Jones. (Saturday, December 12, 1914, is sometimes erroneously cited as the largest one-day percentage decline of the DJIA.[3][4] In reality, the ostensible decline of 24.39% was created retroactively by a redefinition of the DJIA in 1916.[5][6])
Following the stock market crash, a group of 33 eminent economists from various nations met in Washington, D.C. in December 1987, and collectively predicted that “the next few years could be the most troubled since the 1930s”.[7] However, the DJIA was positive for the 1987 calendar year. It opened on January 2, 1987 at 1,897 points and closed on December 31, 1987 at 1,939 points. The DJIA did not regain its August 25, 1987 closing high of 2,722 points until almost two years later. Look at the chart below (Link)
[]http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/silver/880798.pdf0 This was caused by overpricing and not having silver or gold backing the dollar. When we no longer have to prove the true worth of something, overpricing, driven by greed is inevitable, If you dare look at history and you will see it.
Really? Seriously?

This is so far off base its almost psychotic...

So let me ask. You bought and sold houses. Did you buy them below market value and only sell them at a reasonable return on your investment or did you sell them at market value (or more if you could get it) and try to make a killing?

Oh hell, nevermind. You aren't in business any more.
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:30   #75
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I can't help but notice the amount of over priced items in the classified sections of all the 4m's I'm on. I can tell you this: I am compiling a list of all those who are trying to sell Glock mag's, ammo, loading supplies, and AR type rifles and mag's for twice what they are worth. If the ***** ever does hit the fan, these people will not be able to be trusted. They are trying to take advantage of you now, what will these leaches do when they get hungry. I saw a POS Keltech Sub 2000 for a sale price of $950.00. Anyone who would buy that POS for more than $295.00 is out of their mind. How do I know that? I had one and sold it for that because It was inaccurate and felt like a toy gun. It is not a gun you can count on. My brother-in-law told me he would sell me an Ar15 for $950.00. It was worth more than that six months ago. He is someone I trust and would do anything for. He has integrity. Something the gougers lack. These people are the reason the prices are sky rocketing and they are the reason it is so hard to get things we all need. These people are what is wrong with this country. Bottom feeders always muddy up the water for the rest of us. Gun shops are just now starting to sell a limit of two to three pounds of powder and two to three boxes of shells. They are learning that they actually hurt themselves because they are out of stock and laying off sales people. Make your own list, because you may regret dealing with them later on. Some would sell their own mother to get what they wanted. I really wouldn't care if it didn't drive up the prices for the rest of us, but it does.
The fact that you don't understand what gouging is even after it has been pointed out 10 times should end this discussion. FOR IT TO BE GOUGING WE HAVE TO BE TALKING ABOUT NECESSITIES. We aren't so end of discussion.
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