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Old 05-23-2012, 23:28   #126
vaquero aleman
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Check out 460rowland.com
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Old 05-24-2012, 23:17   #127
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The 460 is very appealing, but the power level I want is 230-255 gr bullets at 1000-1100 fps. Still, the 460 is nice, neat, and could be "super" and then some

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Old 05-25-2012, 05:23   #128
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Buffalo Bore shows a 45 Super 255gr hard cast @ 1090fps from a 5" 1911, so the G30 would require hand loads, most likely, to get there. Unless you were to get a longer barrel from LWD. Then, IMO, the $319+s&h you would pay 460rowland.com might not be a bad idea. And if you hand load then those ballistics would be easy to achieve with the rowland set up. I have often thought that I would like to hand load so I can have a 250gr XTP @ 1200fps from my rowland G21. Cor Bon loads a funny looking .460 hollow point 255gr close to those ballistics-1100fps from what length test barrel I do not know.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:57   #129
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After thinking about it, I think you are right. I did do a bunch of research on 460 Rowland about a year ago. There is really no downside. At my level of performance, I might get by without the compensator....but then I wouldn't have the style points
1. Mild 45 acp to wild Rowland will cycle.
2. 319.00 ain't bad considering he has already worked out the bugs.
3. It looks really cool too.

At the time, I had an M&P pistol. I emailed a question to them and Johnny Rowland himself emailed me back within a day or two. It seems that his venture is still small but it has been growing slowly but steadily. Now if I had any money.....

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Old 05-25-2012, 08:05   #130
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http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1409265

I have been fooling around with 460 for my 21 for a few months now and I am close to getting it right, without the comp or porting. But, since I want to keep within the forum rules, I will no longer post here about 460.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:39   #131
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Awesome thread. I subscribed to follow along. I might come off as weird to some because of my quest for the perfect simple one or two gun set up. I currently carry a Ruger SP101 with the 3" barrel. I also have a Flat Top 44 special intended for hunting. They are both wonderful (haven't even fired the flat top yet due to no reloading equipment and being broke. ha!). I target shoot, plink, carry, and put deer meat on the table with the SP (legally).......but......

My wife hates revolvers, but wants a Glock. I love Glocks so why not a pair of G30's for us with a bigger G21 on the wish list for later. If I put Rowland kits on mine, we still could share brass (rowland of course), dies, bullets, holsters, 45acp ammo etc..... It just makes sense to me.

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Old 05-30-2012, 13:21   #132
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I posted this over on the 21 club. Hate to double post but think it is good information to share. Input is appreciated here too.

Ok, here goes. I started some 45 super load work using 45 +P Starline brass. I also purchased some 45 Super Starline brass as well. I cut some of each in half and felt the 45 +P brass provided more support.

Gun details: G21, Lone Wolf aftermarket threaded barrel, Wolf 24lb recoil spring. Stock otherwise.

The starting data used was lifted from this site I used Hornady 185XTP, AA#7, Wolf primer.

I'm at work and don't have the middle powder measurements however the first 5 shot string (left in picture) started at 13.0 grains and the 7th and final string (right in pic) finished at 15.5 grains.

My chrony was acting up all day and obtained some limited data. Shot string #5 (left to right in the box) was in the 1340fps range if memory serves correctly. Chrony messed up on 6&7 so I will have to redo those.

The gun functioned perfectly. Ejected cases went 5-6 feet to the right and slightly back. Recoil (in my opinion) was moderate-heavy.

I'm not seeing any smiles or any other indicators that would say to stop at this point. I've micrometered all of the cases the entire length of their bodies and I'm not finding any differences from string #1 to string #7 that would make me say "whoe nellie".

Please let me know your thoughts and what you would consider as a case head measurement that might make you take a second look. Question: Is this measurement vs a virgin unfired case or vs a starting load fired case?

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Old 07-01-2012, 14:14   #133
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Loaded up some .45 Super for the first time today. Used:
New Starline brass
9grs Power Pistol
230gr FMJ seated to 1.240"
CCI LP.

Only ran 5, it's terribly hot here, right around 100 degrees. Shooting Chrony F1 @ 10'.
Ran through Glock 21sf np3 w/4.6" KKM barrel and captured 22lb recoil spring. Recoil was there, but not brutal. Speeds were:
1095
1096
1092
1084
1078
Avg= 1089 fps/ 606 ft-lbs

Brass looked good, I feel there is some more room to play here.
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Old 07-01-2012, 19:30   #134
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Little update, I loaded up a few more and to the backyard I went. G21sf w/KKM 4.6" bbl and 22lb spring.

230gr XTP 9.5gr Power Pistol, 1.230" (1.240" wouldn't feed in my KKM bbl), CCI LP, Starline brass. 5 shot average was 1135 fps packing 658 ft-lbs energy. Liking the 45 Super more and more! Brass looked good, I'm sure one could go a little higher still...slowly. Maybe 9.7gr next.

Also for kicks I wanted to give Longshot a try. I almost started at 10grs which is the minimum charge for 460 Rowland...but I prefer to play it safe. I only shot 3 of each, but here it is, this time 230gr FMJ @ 1.240" CCI LP Starline virgin brass.

8.5gr Longshot avg= 1025 fps

9gr Longshot avg= 1068 fps


The online data Hodgdon shows for the .45 Super is a joke, not even .45 ACP +P level. Brass looked okay and could more than likely go higher, but that's all for today.
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Old 07-03-2012, 21:14   #135
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I've read through this thread and it seems that a 21 lb spring is all you need to fire .45 Super out of a Glock 30. However, is it also recommended to upgrade the barrel? I'm hearing this may not be the case with the 21's but not sure about the lighter slide 30's.
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Old 07-04-2012, 13:16   #136
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I built a 21 SF for .45 Super and I am having some problems.

The gun;
Glock 21 SF
5.75" Lone Wolf Barrel
Wolff 24# spring and Guide Rod
Recoil Buffer

The problem is it won't cycle the next round, sometimes it jams with the round still in the magazine but the bullet sticking up to catch the slide. And sometimes it doesn't feed at all, I have to manualy jack one in each time.

Chrony data;

185 gr XTP - 1373 FPS @ 3 ft.
230 gr XTP - 1213 FPS @ 3 ft.

Any help would be much apprieciated, I REALLY want this caliber to work, It is the ULTIMATE woods carry gun if I can make it reliable.
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Old 07-04-2012, 13:25   #137
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I use two standard mag springs in each of my 21 mags. At first it seems like they just won't fit but keep at it and you will get them in the mag. I shoot Underwood 230gr @ 1100fps without any misfeeds. And I shoot .460 Rowland with the last two rounds misfeeding. That is 230gr @ 1300fps, and its always the same, the last two will not feed without assistance.

Unfortunately with the double sprung mags you won't be able to get 13 rounds in, but I am satisfied with 11 rounds in mine.

Also, you might have to remove the recoil buffer to allow the slide enough room for rearward travel, because your slide may not be going far back enough to get behind the case. I "bit the bullet" and bought a Sprinco recoil reducer to eliminate the frame contact, although I had to send it back to Sprinco so they could put a stronger sub spring in it.

The next step is a threaded barrel with comp.
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Old 07-04-2012, 14:13   #138
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Thanks,
I have the threaded barrel, and I was thinking about buying the extra power mag springs?
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Old 07-04-2012, 14:40   #139
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I have two Wolff "extra power mag springs" collecting dust with the rest of my gun stuff. My feeding problems didn't stop until I combined the two standard mag springs. You might have better luck with a different brand than Wolff.

The only comp that I think would be worth the money is the Yankee Hill Machine Co., which comes in stainless steel, not blued steel or aluminum. Good luck with your endeavor.

http://www.yankeehillmachine.com/
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Old 07-04-2012, 14:55   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickDick View Post
I built a 21 SF for .45 Super and I am having some problems.

The gun;
Glock 21 SF
5.75" Lone Wolf Barrel
Wolff 24# spring and Guide Rod
Recoil Buffer

The problem is it won't cycle the next round, sometimes it jams with the round still in the magazine but the bullet sticking up to catch the slide. And sometimes it doesn't feed at all, I have to manualy jack one in each time.

Chrony data;

185 gr XTP - 1373 FPS @ 3 ft.
230 gr XTP - 1213 FPS @ 3 ft.

Any help would be much apprieciated, I REALLY want this caliber to work, It is the ULTIMATE woods carry gun if I can make it reliable.
What powder are you using? I'm thinking about getting a 6" bbl for the G21sf. As for your post, I would try it without the recoil buffer, I've had issues with those before in other guns.
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Old 07-04-2012, 15:36   #141
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185 gr. - 11.3 gr Power Pistol - 1373 FPS
230 gr. - 10 gr Power Pistol - 1213 FPS
Starline .45 Super brass.

Stock barrel is running about 50 FPS slower.
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Old 08-01-2012, 20:21   #142
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So I tossed the shock buff and got some wolff extra power mag springs and headed out to the range. I started with some .45 acp 230 gr. handloads, she ran good. Then I went to some 185 gr .45 supers, again ran good. Went back to some .45 acp's and things started to fall apart, wouldn't always cycle the next round again. Went back to the 45 super and she started jamming on the bullet. HELP! I need this gun to RUN BABY RUN.
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Old 08-15-2012, 19:20   #143
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SHE RUNS, SHE RUNS!! I tried the 2 mag springs and all problems went away. I can get 11 in the mag and 13 with +2 mag extenders. I used 1 stock spring and 1 Wolff spring together in each mag, the Wolff springs are coiled a little different so they fit inside the stock spring. I am now thinking about getting some springs for the 25 round mags and cutting them to the necessary size to function and maybe I will be able to get 1 more round in the mag.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:52   #144
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I posted this earlier here on GT in another thread, I figured it would be valuable here:

A little more data here. I wanted to mess around a little with 200gr bullets in the Super. All loaded to 1.220" using 200gr Speer TMJ, CCI LP primers and new Starline cases. 4.6" KKM barrel used in the G21sf and captured 22lb RSA.

Temp was pretty hot, around 90 degrees but humidity wasn't that bad, I'm at about 1000-1050 ft above sea level. Loaded up three batches using Power Pistol. 10.5gr, 10.8gr, and 11gr. Five shot averages.

10.5gr PP average: 1209 fps / 649 ft-lbs
10.8gr PP average: 1241 fps / 683 ft-lbs
11.0gr PP average: 1278 fps / 725 ft-lbs

All brass looked good, primers were not flattened. All did have some extractor rash on them, but not severe.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:07   #145
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More data! I ran through an assortment of .45 ACP and .45 Super loads today. All shot from my Gen4 Glock 21 with 4 port KKM barrel (approx 5" in length). Listed .45 Super loads used new Starline brass and CCI LP primers. The velocities are averages.

10gr Power Pistol, 230gr XTP @ 1.260": 1177 fps (707 ft-lbs)

Previously I had loaded 9.5gr at a shorter 1.230" and got 1135 fps average out of my older stock length KKM barrel (4.6"), but it was also about 90 degrees outside, whereas with the data today, temps were around 50 degrees. My new KKM 4 port will accept XTP's loaded out to 1.260" (and longer, but I don't see going past 1.260") but my previous stock length barrel would only accept them @ 1.230".

My goal is 1200 fps with a 230gr JHP. If it was warmer out, I could have gotten it I think, but next up I'm going to try 10gr PP @ ~1.240-1.250". Brass looked good throughout all testing and I feel this is safe and should get me to, and even over, the 1200 fps mark. A note on bullets, I chose the XTP for several reasons. One I have more of them, and they're shorter than 230gr Gold Dots and I feel they might hold up the best at these speeds. The 230gr Gold Dot is definitely longer than the 230gr XTP, so loaded to the same OAL, powder charge would need to decrease, then work your way back up. I know it isn't scientific, but the 230gr Gold Dot @ 1175-1200 fps blows apart in water jugs, and I do mean completely blows apart, all the pedals sheared off except one what was barely hanging on.

On game, the Gold Dot probably wouldn't come apart quite as bad since water jugs have a tenancy to exaggerate expansion. Either way, the XTP and Gold Dot are my two go-to hollow point bullets for the .45 Super.

More data:
11.3gr Power Pistol, 200gr XTP @ 1.260": 1351 fps (810+ ft-lbs)
Very impressed with this, although it may be too much of a good thing. The biggest issue I see concerning the .45 Super (a problem made even worse in the 460 Rowland) is that I'm pushing bullets designed for .45 ACP velocities well above what they're "supposed" to be driven. This doesn't make it "bad", it just means that one should almost expect bullet failure. Just throwing that out there for thought.

The 200gr XTP and 200gr Gold Dot are very similar in length, and both are my pick for bullets most likely to hold together.

More:
9.5gr 800x, 230gr FMJ @ 1.260": 1080 fps (very consistent, extreme spread of 7 fps). I was uncertain of what to expect with this load, but it shot very well. Not the most powerful 230gr load, but still offers around 600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

8.5gr Power Pistol, 250gr hardcast Missouri "PinBusters" @ 1.220": 1101 fps (673 ft-lbs) This bullet is hardcast and although I prefer other designs, this one should get the job done, and they're inexpensive to boot.


I've been curious of ~250gr bullets in the .45 Super, and it's something I plan on playing with more. Next up I'm going to do 250gr Gold Dots ("Deepcurl")and I'm going to order some Beartooth 255gr WFN bullets. The 250gr Gold Dot is very long, but it will feed if I seat it to a max OAL of 1.210", which is right around the canalure anyways. Data is non existent so I will have to work up a load for it, but that's almost the case with any .45 Super. My goal is 1050-1100 fps with it.

The Beartooth 255 WFN is a very short bullet for it's weight, so that could be very interesting. I know a guy on here has loaded up the Beartooth 265gr WFNGC and got it up to ~1150 fps. My goal for the 255gr WFN is ~1150 fps from my 5" KKM barrel, that's more than enough for any critter I would use, and if I need more the 454 Casull comes out.

Also I plan on coming up with some VV 3N38 data as well, it's been very impressive in my 6" G24 bbl and I feel it could be awesome as well in the .45 Super.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:19   #146
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Some more data I got yesterday, all velocities are averages and shot from my Gen4 G21 w/KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Temp was around 50 degrees. Brass is new Starline and I use CCI LP primers.

I am also using a captured 22lb RSA, I use the Glockworx adapter ring for Gen4's Glocks. It works like a charm on all my Gen4 Glocks in case you want to use gen3 recoil spring assemblies in your Gen4.

230gr FMJ, 9.8r Power Pistol @ 1.250": 1174 fps

250gr Gold Dot, 8gr Power Pistol @ 1.215": 1031 fps (8 fps extreme spread!!)

255gr Beartooth WFN (250gr), 8.8gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1125 fps


Notes: Previously the 230gr XTP @ 1.260 averaged 1177 fps, and my Precision Delta 230gr FMJ bullets are longer than the 230gr XTP. Next round will be the 230gr XTP loaded to 1.240-1.250 w/10gr Power Pistol.

All brass looked good. The 250gr Gold Dot load was a soft shooter for sure and I feel going 8.2gr PP is safe. A quick note, just like the 230gr Gold Dot, I don't feel the 250gr Gold Dot is meant for real high velocities.

It's been my experience that the longer pedal (usually heavier weight) Gold Dots don't hold up as well as the shorter pedal ones. An example, a 165gr Gold Dot from my .40 cal Gen4 G35 w/KKM 6" G24 barrel averages 1400 fps with VV 3N38, but held together very well and very uniformly in water whereas the 230gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super driven to around 1200 fps completely came apart. The 250gr Gold Dot is the same, I've driven it faster than it's meant to out of a warm .45 Colt and it too came apart.

I feel both bullets (230gr and 250gr Gold Dot) should be kept under 1100 fps. So after chronographing the 250gr Gold Dots, I loaded up one more with 8.2gr Power Pistol @ 1.210" and shot it into some jugs. Penetrated 4 jugs and did a real number on the first two and split the bottom of the third. I know, I know, water jug "testing" isn't really testing, but IMHO if it holds together in water, it will likely hold together in critters. If it penetrates deep in water, you can rest assured it's a deep penetrator.

I'm guessing the impact velocity to be around 1050 fps, here's a pic:

The Big Dawgs Club

Soft shooting, deep penetration, expanded to an avg of about .75 cal and and 8 fps extreme spread. Looks like my quest for the 250gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super is complete. Oh, the shredded bullet in the background is a 230gr Gold Dot driven to around 1200 fps.

The Beartooth 255gr WFN is a nice bullet, although I had to seat it deeper than I really wanted, it's not so bad. The reason is that it's a very short bullet for it's weight, shorter than my 230gr bullets. 1.175" was the longest OAL it would chamber in my barrel. However, since it's so short, the base of the bullet isn't protruding any deeper into the case than any other bullet despite it's shorter OAL. Next up, I'm trying 9gr Power Pistol seated to 1.170".
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:29   #147
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Quote:
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The Beartooth 255gr WFN is a nice bullet, although I had to seat it deeper than I really wanted, it's not so bad. The reason is that it's a very short bullet for it's weight, shorter than my 230gr bullets. 1.175" was the longest OAL it would chamber in my barrel. However, since it's so short, the base of the bullet isn't protruding any deeper into the case than any other bullet despite it's shorter OAL. Next up, I'm trying 9gr Power Pistol seated to 1.170".
I ordered the 255 from Beartooth just for my G21sf in 45 Super, but found the same as you: I had to seat it a lot deeper than I wanted.

So just for kicks I tried their 265 WFN-GC bullet. I ordered the 265's for a standard pressure 45 Colt load in my Alan Harton 45 Colt Montado. For 45 Super I seat this one about 1.186", right at the crimping groove (although I use a taper crimp die for this round).

I've been very happy with the 265 WFNGC from Beartooth, although I do want to take a look at that Hunters Supply 275 WFN as well.

I use a 6", 4-port barrel from Lone Wolf Dist. Its been a great barrel, but I loaded my rounds to the barrel in order to keep the tight chamber. Its easy to load up a dummy round. Just keep seating the bullet deeper a little at a time until it drops easy into the barrel/chamber.

I hear what people are saying about Blue Dot, but I have been using it for at least two decades and have never had a problem, except when I used magnum primers in a load that was worked up with standard primers. I never use mag primers with Blue Dot.

Now, usually, Blue Dot doesn't turn in real low standard deviation numbers (SD) or extreme spread (ES) numbers, but has generally been accurate. However, in working up the 265 WFNGC I found that the pressure and velocity moved up fairly predictably - in a linear fashion - and I had some great ES's of 16 and 11 fps!

If I wasn't still working on my last keg of Blue Dot, I'd probaly try Power Pistol or Longshot, though.
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Old 11-14-2012, 15:29   #148
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My G30 460 Rowland conversion ran 45 Super and 460 Rowland flawlessly today...

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Old 02-07-2013, 12:12   #149
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More fresh .45 Super data from Gen4 G21 w/4 port KKM barrel (barrel itself w/threading is 5" long)

New Starline brass and CCI LP:

230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps (15 fps ES!!) That's 717 ft-lbs!

230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps (37 fps ES) That's 771 ft-lbs!

"255gr" Beartooth WFN, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1,179 fps (13 fps ES!) That's 772 ft-lbs (it really weighs in at 250gr, not 255gr)

"280gr" Beartooth WFNGC, 8.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 1,065 fps (24 fps ES) That's 693 ft-lbs (it's a 275gr, not 280gr)

Notes: brass looked good on all loads. I had no previous data on the 280gr WFNGC, so I used 8.0gr. I feel 8.2gr would have been safe, even possibly 8.4/8.5gr. That should get me the 1100 fps I'm after, but I'm not disappointed since 1,065 fps is pretty close and it's still gonna kill quick and penetrate well.
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Old 03-10-2013, 13:23   #150
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Too nice of a day to pass up! I had a few ideas in my head and wanted to see the results. Temperature between 55-60 degress outside and the gun is my normal, Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel (5") with 22lb RSA (gen3). CCI LP primers and new Starline brass was used.

Working with Power Pistol and Longshot today:

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,104 fps (20 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,128 fps (38 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,124 fps (12 fps ES!)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,164 fps (22 fps ES)

I like that the 250gr XTP has a somewhat short OAL, quite a bit shorter than my other 250gr HP, the Speer Gold Dot aka "Deep Curl". I was wanting over 1,100 fps and I got it, but was still curious as to how much, if any, it would expand at that velocity. I had to seat the bullet to 1.190" in order for it to chamber in the KKM, as 1.200" was just a hair too long, literally.

I think where the .45 Super/460 Rowland shine is not with .45 ACP designed bullets, although they can be pushed a little bit and still be okay. I think it's with the heavier 250gr+ bullets. Those bullets are usually designed tougher than ACP style bullets yet out of the Super/Rowland you don't have to worry about pushing them too fast because the bullets will take it. I believe the XTP is rated up to 1500-1600 fps, which you'll never see in a Super/Rowland.

Although unscientific, I loaded one up with Longshot and shot it into lined up water jugs and it penetrated to the 5th jug, shedding a little weight and coming in at 242.3gr, impact velocity over 1150 fps. Interestingly, with the same sectional density, a 200gr .400" XTP from a 6" .40 S&W will do over 1200 fps and also penetrate to the 5th jug. Both would be great choices on game. By comparison, a .451" 200gr XTP (.45 ACP designed) will do over 1300 fps from the Super, but only penetrates 3 jugs, although it did expand bigger, which is to be expected. Picture of the 250gr XTP:

The Big Dawgs Club


I would have to say that I'm satisfied with a 250gr XTP leaving at over 1,150 fps, that's near 750 ft-lbs. To put that in perspective, that's as fast (or faster) than a .45 ACP 185gr +P and weights 65gr heavier, or the same speed as the 85gr lighter 165gr .40 S&W factory load.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42