GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2013, 17:15   #41
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,377
Hodgdon's site list for the 40S&W 165 grain JHP as a max load of 7.8 grains of LongShot powder yielding 1185 fps with a pressure of 33,400 PSI
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 19:36   #42
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 13,256


Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Hodgdon's site list for the 40S&W 165 grain JHP as a max load of 7.8 grains of LongShot powder yielding 1185 fps with a pressure of 33,400 PSI
That is a big difference from 10 grains of Longshot.

Thanks for the pull down, Shadow.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 00:30   #43
blastfact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,616
That was some hot .40.
blastfact is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 04:09   #44
pistolpete10mm
Member
 
pistolpete10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 68
Good to hear nobody got seriously hurt, but +640 ft lbs from a .40 S&W is just crazy. With all due respect to Mike, but selling this kind of ammo is insane, what was he thinking? He made a hot 10mm out of a .40. Knowing that the Glock has had the most kabooms in .40 this was just a recipe for disaster. I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often. Anther lesson learned I guess, but this could have been avoided if Mike didn't went overboard with his ++++++P loads. You don't talk bad about people who are no longer among us, but the fact is that he endangered peoples lives with his dangerously loaded ammo.
pistolpete10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 09:55   #45
SDGlock23
Glockoholic
 
SDGlock23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Land of Forgetfulness
Posts: 7,782
Yikes!

I never even knew they offered such a load. I've worked with Longshot quite a bit in the .40 but 10.0gr for a 165gr is a bit warm obviously.

I have issue with the 7.8gr load listed by Hodgdon, but the 165gr Sierra JHP is a somewhat long JHP compared to the shorter 165gr Gold Dot. The main reason this data from Hodgdon is suspect is that the 180gr has a higher max charge (8.0gr) than does the 165gr...which is whack. But that Sierra JHP is almost as long as some 180gr JHPs. Looking at other loads, with a 165 Gold Dot somewhere around 9.0gr should be fairly close to what should be listed.

Due to the shorter OAL of the 165gr Gold Dot, I've worked up to 9.5gr in the .40, which out of the 6" G24 length KKM barrel averaged 1,485 fps/ 800+ ft-lbs. I stopped there since almost 1500 fps with a 165gr Gold Dot out of a .40 is plenty for me. However, would I want to shoot that from a stock barrel? I wouldn't without working it up in a stock barrel, but I prefer the better support of the KKM.
__________________
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."

Last edited by SDGlock23; 02-07-2013 at 09:58..
SDGlock23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 11:20   #46
Any Cal.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 443
For an idea of what can be acheived safely I look at Buffalo Bore's #s, as they seem to load as hot as possible safely. Their .40 +P load is 155 @ 1300 out of a 5" barrel. Anybody claiming or getting 100fps more is doing something VERY wrong, and risking other people's health in the process.

Thanks for the pulldown Shadow. Did you pull several to check consistency?
Any Cal. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 12:03   #47
475-480
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston,Tx
Posts: 34
FWIW ,
When I run the numbers in my Quickload program for the 40 SW-165gr GD and Longshot powder at 10.0gr at 1325 fps = 49,700 PSI. No wonder something blew up.
I think we might need to pay more attention to what we are shooting. A 165gr JHP in the 10MM at 1325 is medium high pressure how much more in the 40 SW.
Lets be safe out there men.


Sean

Last edited by 475-480; 02-07-2013 at 12:06..
475-480 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 12:37   #48
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,377
Here is the run down of all 35 SwampFox Ammo 40S&W cartridges loaded with Hodgdon's LongShot powder, as pulled-down from Deadandgone box. Once again we wish to thank him for sharing so we can learn for this incident!

13 cartridges @ 09.6 gr / 11 cartridges @ 09.4 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.8 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.9 gr and 2 cartridges @ 10.0 gr

10.0 gr
09.9 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
10.0 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.9 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr

All loads were checked on two scales, the loads at 09.9 grains were for my balance beam RCBS 5-10 Scale these would have shown 09.8 on the digital because it only shows even numbers in the tenths column...

UPDATED the previous post with this data as well...
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 13:12   #49
475-480
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston,Tx
Posts: 34
The 9.4gr loads are BORDERLINE OK ,still over pressure but workable in a fully supported barrel.
His QC on powder measurements is sorely lacking. Kinda makes me wonder what brand powder measure he used.

Sean
475-480 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 13:33   #50
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by 475-480 View Post
The 9.4gr loads are BORDERLINE OK ,still over pressure but workable in a fully supported barrel.
His QC on powder measurements is sorely lacking. Kinda makes me wonder what brand powder measure he used.

Sean
It might be, but I don't wish to work to those levels in the 40S&W cartridges...

Did the Quickload program ever get data for the IMR800X powder? ??? LongShot is very simular by weight as 800X.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 13:42   #51
475-480
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston,Tx
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
It might be, but I don't wish to work to those levels in the 40S&W cartridges...


Did the Quickload program ever get data for the IMR800X powder? ??? LongShot is very simular by weight as 800X.
* I agree to hot .
* No the QL program does not have IMR 800 X in it yet.

Sean

Last edited by 475-480; 02-07-2013 at 13:43..
475-480 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 14:02   #52
broncobuddha1
Member
 
broncobuddha1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 72
OP....very glad you are OK. Scary I'm sure.

I honestly don't get loading hot 40. Wasn't the 40 originally developed because..... well because it isn't 10mm?

Last edited by broncobuddha1; 02-07-2013 at 14:03..
broncobuddha1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 15:46   #53
deadandgone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 108
First, thanks to Shadow for pulling all those rounds. I could not believe my ears when he called me and told me that he found 10 grains of longshot in a round. I am not a reloader, but even I know that was just crazy.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm just glad I got all my eyes and fingers to consider it. Looking back, I trusted Mike to load a safe but hot round for my xdm. I now believe that trust was wrongfully placed. I looked at the kaboom stories from a couple of years ago....very similar to what happened to me. Shortly after Mike made my ammo, he decided to "back off" a little and began to reduce some of his loads. Surely he had to know he was doing some crazy, dangerous stuff. Me, I was naive, and wanted to believe that I could shoot this jacked up stuff without fear.

We learn, and we move on, hopefully sharing what we've learned along the way. It cannot be overstated, Swamp Fox ammo is dangerous. We have no way of knowing his quality control on any given batch, or what he was thinking on any given day. I think it has been stated somewhere in this thread that Mike tended to vacillate with his thinking and his actions. A dangerous way to make ammo.
deadandgone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 16:12   #54
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,641
It seems making your own ammo is the way to go. As long as you don't get distracted while reloading or ingest something sinful before hand, you would (or should) know what you get.
ModGlock17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 19:07   #55
Any Cal.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 443
So it looks like he was shooting for 9.6g, and everything else was just the deviations due to extremely poor process control. Not a matter of +/- .2g, which would have been poor anyway, but -.2/+.4, which is garbage. So much for "true 10mm ballistics".
Any Cal. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 19:19   #56
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobuddha1 View Post
OP....very glad you are OK. Scary I'm sure.

I honestly don't get loading hot 40. Wasn't the 40 originally developed because..... well because it isn't 10mm?
You're correct, that was why the 40S&W came into being. Which makes me wonder why some people buy the 40 and then extra hot loads so it'll be closer the 10 instead of just buying the 10 to start with.
oldman11 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 23:18   #57
TDC20
Senior Member
 
TDC20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
You're correct, that was why the 40S&W came into being. Which makes me wonder why some people buy the 40 and then extra hot loads so it'll be closer the 10 instead of just buying the 10 to start with.
Because the 10 has vicious recoil. Haven't you heard?
__________________
A handgun is only good for fighting your way to a rifle.
TDC20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 09:07   #58
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,377
My purpose for the 40S&W is for building proficiency and maintaining trigger time mostly with cast bullets. Using the conversion barrels yields the same sight picture and trigger/grip feel.

The conversion barrels allow me to also used other cartridges...Handloaders are just like that, if the find brass they want to loaded it up and shoot it!
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:18   #59
SDGlock23
Glockoholic
 
SDGlock23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Land of Forgetfulness
Posts: 7,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
You're correct, that was why the 40S&W came into being. Which makes me wonder why some people buy the 40 and then extra hot loads so it'll be closer the 10 instead of just buying the 10 to start with.
I can't speak for everyone, but I loaded for the 10mm for years. I guess the very same could be said for 10mm guys who load the 10mm trying make it a .41 Magnum. Why not buy a .41 Mag to start with? Someone can't load for the .40 to get the most out of it, but can load the 10mm well beyond book and that's okay?

All I'm saying is, you can load the 10mm warm and you can load the .40 warm. Same precautions apply to both, there is not an extra margin of safety because it's a 10mm instead of a .40 because the 10mm case isn't any stronger than the .40 case, if anything the opposite is true. Loading warm/hot for the 10mm is common, why would it be any different for the .40?
__________________
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
SDGlock23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:57   #60
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,377
SDGlock23, As is with every cartridge ever developed, there are those that will push till something gives! How much is too much?...OUCH! They are looking for maximum performace throwing caution to the wind.

One thing that comes to mind in the Op's situation, pressure testing if it is done is done so in a fixed barrel fixture. While things may have been within certain limits during that testing, the dymaics of the semiauto pistols can change the way things happen thru out the pressure and ejection phases. Think of bolt action rifle vs. blowback semiautos...

Early unlocking of the barrel and slide, can actually be a cause of case failures, as the early ejection cycle is dragging the cartridge out of the chamber under pressure, increasing unsupported areas. The case expansion could actually work to further increase unsupported conditions pushing itself out of the chamber.

Primers being popped out, can move the slide back from the locked possition, the case maybe forced off the extractor hook, to be left in the chamber.

The question of the aftermarket barrel itself raises some concerns, the angles of the locking lug on the barrel in relation to the angles of the locking block in the frame, could have been different form that of stock arrangements. There is some data to support this on the various Glock gun sales sites, suggesting poor fitting and lock-up situations.

These are a few things that come to mind with the dynamics involved for the Glock and other guns.

The reason I took on this Pull-Down process, was two fold for me, I like to study what lead up to the situation and also to provide better insite, so everyone could learn something from Deadandgone's mishap with his Glock 29. After all it was his intent to post his information for these reasons of having others learn something as well.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 18:40.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,163
362 Members
801 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31