Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-08-2013, 09:33   #21
UtahBassKicker
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Southern Utah
Posts: 53
Thanks for the input. I apologize if I stirred the pot in anyway, I was just looking for some info. I feel confident in this round and believe it will do the job if needed. I do appreciate and respect everyone's opinion in this thread. Thanks again for the input, opinions, and info.
UtahBassKicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 09:38   #22
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
The best test of anti-personnel ammo is on the street. And the Marshall-Sanow collection of data is the best thing going.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:27   #23
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniej123 View Post
When you are comparing damage done by a "proven" round to that of a new round, in the very same substance, how can you then say the test is meaningless? If you don't like the round, don't use it. I as well as others here are using the FBI data to try and decide what we want to use.

Besides, shot placement is king anyway.
Bullets dug out of human beings rarely if ever look like the picture perfect expanded bullets cut out of ballistic gel. Shooting bullets into gel cannot indicate how that same bullet will react in human flesh and blood nor can it indicate how quickly it will incapacitate a human being. Two examples:

1) The 9x19mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP have been used in Law Enforcement service for numerous decades and have seen a lot of use on all kinds of people and under all kinds of situations. Both these loads have an extensive proven street record of putting BG's down immediately and with very few shots being needed. And yet the FBI (and their followers) continue to disregard these loads as being "worthy" of use because they fail the FBI's 12" minimum penetration in gel. Hmm. Damn effective on the streets under various conditions; doesn't meet or exceed minimum qualifications in ballistic gel. Works on street; not in gel. Figure that one out yourself...

2) Eugene Wolberg and his testing of the 9x19mm Win 147JHP in ballistic gel and comparison to actual shootings. In his study Wolberg concluded that 10% ballistic gel equalled human tissue. Major flaw in his tests: He had the San Diego Coroner's office CHERRY PICK the shootings that he used in his study in order to prove his theory as valid! Wolberg EXCLUDED any and all shootings that would have voided his theory. Even the esteemed dentist DocGKR admitted to the cherry picking event on a thread in the Beretta Forum some years ago.

But Hey, if people want to blindly believe that ballistic gel = human tissue and vise versa, have fun.

And in regards to "shot placement", that is a complete fantasy. Even "highly trained" LEO's across this nation can't "place their shots", and rely more on firing numerous rounds to incapacitate the BG's than shot placement. Think the average untrained civilian is going to do better under the adrenaline dump of Fight or Flight? Do or Die? Even top competition shooters who burn up tens of thousands of rounds every year in training will drop a round or two during competitions. In personal SD shootings, one aims for center mass or what ever portion of the BG's body is exposed and you hope that the bullet(s) strike where it will incapacitate the BG's action the quickest. If shot placement was truely KING, then there would be no reason for deadly force because every cop and armed citizen would easily be able to literally shoot the gun or knife out of the attacker's hands or other such nonsense. Skill with a SD firearm is needed to be able to get the bullets on target, but it's pure fantasy to believe that your average, and even the above average, gun carrier has the skills to surgically place their shots on a moving target while under a physical life threatening attack and at the same time experiencing their base human instinct of fight or flight.
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:38   #24
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Bullets dug out of human beings rarely if ever look like the picture perfect expanded bullets cut out of ballistic gel. Shooting bullets into gel cannot indicate how that same bullet will react in human flesh and blood nor can it indicate how quickly it will incapacitate a human being. Two examples:

1) The 9x19mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP have been used in Law Enforcement service for numerous decades and have seen a lot of use on all kinds of people and under all kinds of situations. Both these loads have an extensive proven street record of putting BG's down immediately and with very few shots being needed. And yet the FBI (and their followers) continue to disregard these loads as being "worthy" of use because they fail the FBI's 12" minimum penetration in gel. Hmm. Damn effective on the streets under various conditions; doesn't meet or exceed minimum qualifications in ballistic gel. Works on street; not in gel. Figure that one out yourself...

2) Eugene Wolberg and his testing of the 9x19mm Win 147JHP in ballistic gel and comparison to actual shootings. In his study Wolberg concluded that 10% ballistic gel equalled human tissue. Major flaw in his tests: He had the San Diego Coroner's office CHERRY PICK the shootings that he used in his study in order to prove his theory as valid! Wolberg EXCLUDED any and all shootings that would have voided his theory. Even the esteemed dentist DocGKR admitted to the cherry picking event on a thread in the Beretta Forum some years ago.

But Hey, if people want to blindly believe that ballistic gel = human tissue and vise versa, have fun.

And in regards to "shot placement", that is a complete fantasy. Even "highly trained" LEO's across this nation can't "place their shots", and rely more on firing numerous rounds to incapacitate the BG's than shot placement. Think the average untrained civilian is going to do better under the adrenaline dump of Fight or Flight? Do or Die? Even top competition shooters who burn up tens of thousands of rounds every year in training will drop a round or two during competitions. In personal SD shootings, one aims for center mass or what ever portion of the BG's body is exposed and you hope that the bullet(s) strike where it will incapacitate the BG's action the quickest. If shot placement was truely KING, then there would be no reason for deadly force because every cop and armed citizen would easily be able to literally shoot the gun or knife out of the attacker's hands or other such nonsense. Skill with a SD firearm is needed to be able to get the bullets on target, but it's pure fantasy to believe that your average, and even the above average, gun carrier has the skills to surgically place their shots on a moving target while under a physical life threatening attack and at the same time experiencing their base human instinct of fight or flight.

This is why I carry the WW 9mm 115gr JHP +p+ load with confidence in my G17.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions

Last edited by SCmasterblaster; 02-08-2013 at 10:40..
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:59   #25
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahBassKicker View Post
Thanks for the input. I apologize if I stirred the pot in anyway, I was just looking for some info. I feel confident in this round and believe it will do the job if needed. I do appreciate and respect everyone's opinion in this thread. Thanks again for the input, opinions, and info.
Don't worry about it.

The topic is always a heated one and emotionally-driven arguments that rely upon subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) insult to support the poor advice being dispensed seems to predominate here as evidenced by a few of the responses.

Fortunately, such behavior is easy to spot and ignore.
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by M 7; 02-08-2013 at 11:31..
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 11:10   #26
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
The best test of anti-personnel ammo is on the street. And the Marshall-Sanow collection of data is the best thing going.
Marshall & Sanow's analysis of that collection of data has been thoroughly debunked by a few independent sources:

Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow "Data Base": An Evaluation Over Time by M. van Maanan

Sanow Strikes (Out) Again by Duncan MacPherson

Too Good to be True, Wishful Thinking?, The Best Defense by M. Fackler, M.D., and C. E. Peters
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by M 7; 02-08-2013 at 11:12..
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 11:40   #27
Thumpernator
Senior Member
 
Thumpernator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zombieland, Ga
Posts: 407
Just make sure your gun can handle +P loads if you're using Critical Duty. My S&W M&P Shield is not, so I have the Critical Defense in my magazines.
__________________
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.
Thumpernator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 15:40   #28
vinniej123
Senior Member
 
vinniej123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lewisburg, OH
Posts: 146
Send a message via AIM to vinniej123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Bullets dug out of human beings rarely if ever look like the picture perfect expanded bullets cut out of ballistic gel. Shooting bullets into gel cannot indicate how that same bullet will react in human flesh and blood nor can it indicate how quickly it will incapacitate a human being. Two examples:

1) The 9x19mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP have been used in Law Enforcement service for numerous decades and have seen a lot of use on all kinds of people and under all kinds of situations. Both these loads have an extensive proven street record of putting BG's down immediately and with very few shots being needed. And yet the FBI (and their followers) continue to disregard these loads as being "worthy" of use because they fail the FBI's 12" minimum penetration in gel. Hmm. Damn effective on the streets under various conditions; doesn't meet or exceed minimum qualifications in ballistic gel. Works on street; not in gel. Figure that one out yourself...

2) Eugene Wolberg and his testing of the 9x19mm Win 147JHP in ballistic gel and comparison to actual shootings. In his study Wolberg concluded that 10% ballistic gel equalled human tissue. Major flaw in his tests: He had the San Diego Coroner's office CHERRY PICK the shootings that he used in his study in order to prove his theory as valid! Wolberg EXCLUDED any and all shootings that would have voided his theory. Even the esteemed dentist DocGKR admitted to the cherry picking event on a thread in the Beretta Forum some years ago.

But Hey, if people want to blindly believe that ballistic gel = human tissue and vise versa, have fun.

And in regards to "shot placement", that is a complete fantasy. Even "highly trained" LEO's across this nation can't "place their shots", and rely more on firing numerous rounds to incapacitate the BG's than shot placement. Think the average untrained civilian is going to do better under the adrenaline dump of Fight or Flight? Do or Die? Even top competition shooters who burn up tens of thousands of rounds every year in training will drop a round or two during competitions. In personal SD shootings, one aims for center mass or what ever portion of the BG's body is exposed and you hope that the bullet(s) strike where it will incapacitate the BG's action the quickest. If shot placement was truely KING, then there would be no reason for deadly force because every cop and armed citizen would easily be able to literally shoot the gun or knife out of the attacker's hands or other such nonsense. Skill with a SD firearm is needed to be able to get the bullets on target, but it's pure fantasy to believe that your average, and even the above average, gun carrier has the skills to surgically place their shots on a moving target while under a physical life threatening attack and at the same time experiencing their base human instinct of fight or flight.
Like you said, a shot in the right place "aka shot placement" does the job, not any magic bullet. :banghead:


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy of evil, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows. In no way can the success of evil be made more sure" TR
vinniej123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 15:47   #29
vinniej123
Senior Member
 
vinniej123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lewisburg, OH
Posts: 146
Send a message via AIM to vinniej123
Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
Don't worry about it.

The topic is always a heated one and emotionally-driven arguments that rely upon subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) insult to support the poor advice being dispensed seems to predominate here as evidenced by a few of the responses.

Fortunately, such behavior is easy to spot and ignore.
Yet I still managed to get sucked in some how. You think I would know better.


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy of evil, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows. In no way can the success of evil be made more sure" TR
vinniej123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 15:55   #30
vinniej123
Senior Member
 
vinniej123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lewisburg, OH
Posts: 146
Send a message via AIM to vinniej123
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahBassKicker View Post
I just bought a box of Hornady Critical Duty 175 grain 40 S&W for my 23 for home defense. Is this a good choice? Never have shot this particular round before, any input out there?
I chose the critical defense for my 23. It was a toss up, but they had defense in stock no duty.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy of evil, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows. In no way can the success of evil be made more sure" TR
vinniej123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 17:14   #31
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniej123 View Post
Yet I still managed to get sucked in some how. You think I would know better.

Happens to the best of us...
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by M 7; 02-08-2013 at 17:14..
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 12:48   #32
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
Marshall & Sanow's analysis of that collection of data has been thoroughly debunked by a few independent sources:

Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow "Data Base": An Evaluation Over Time by M. van Maanan

Sanow Strikes (Out) Again by Duncan MacPherson

Too Good to be True, Wishful Thinking?, The Best Defense by M. Fackler, M.D., and C. E. Peters
I guess that there will always be critics.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 15:30   #33
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I guess that there will always be critics.
Unless you can find a procedural flaw in those analyses, it's more than criticism simply for the sake of criticism.


M&S's work is terribly flawed -some would say fatally so- and there is no getting around it. The statistical analysis (which is no more complicated than that found in a college level course in introductory stats) shows that M&S tampered with their data.


Believe whatever you like- matters not one iota to me.
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by M 7; 02-10-2013 at 15:31..
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 16:04   #34
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
Unless you can find a procedural flaw in those analyses, it's more than criticism simply for the sake of criticism.


M&S's work is terribly flawed -some would say fatally so- and there is no getting around it. The statistical analysis (which is no more complicated than that found in a college level course in introductory stats) shows that M&S tampered with their data.


Believe whatever you like- matters not one iota to me.
Chill out, brother. I have never read M&S.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 18:22   #35
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Chill out, brother. I have never read M&S.
Perhaps you mistook what I said as being "heated"- it wasn't. That's why I had the after what I typed.
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 18:54   #36
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumpernator View Post
Just make sure your gun can handle +P loads if you're using Critical Duty. My S&W M&P Shield is not, so I have the Critical Defense in my magazines.
The S&W Shield isn't rated for +P ammunition?
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 18:55   #37
Iceman cHucK
Senior Member
 
Iceman cHucK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: WA state
Posts: 463
This thread is about Critical Duty. My 9mm P226 MK25 handles the CD 135+P with perfect reliability. Not so with the new 45 CriticalDuty 220+P in my FNP45 and FNX45; had a couple of feeding hangups on the feed ramp. Worked OK in my G21Gen4 but does not chamber "smoothly" in all three pistols. This round is hot and recoil is substantial. I've decided for now NOT to use the 45 CriticalDuty for carry, due to concerns over feed reliability. I've got plenty of other choices that work for me. In conclusion, I was disappointed in the new CriticalDuty 220+P after a long wait to get it!
I'm thru testing new ammo! I'll stick to the loads that have worked for me from now on! It will be interesting to see what other "beta testers" find out. Lesson is to always try your carry ammo before betting your life on it.

Last edited by Iceman cHucK; 02-10-2013 at 19:00..
Iceman cHucK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 19:14   #38
Kentguy
Senior Member
 
Kentguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,059
Iceman Chuck "...I'll stick to the loads that have worked for me from now on!... Lesson is to always try your carry ammo before betting your life on it"



Everyone will always have their favorite ammo for this reason or that, but you hit the nail right on the head "...stick to the loads that have worked for me..."

It's YOUR gun being shot by YOU not someone else. All the statistics in the world are just guidelines for you to make your own decision about (as you so correctly put it) "... betting your life on it."

There is little doubt in my mind, based on my own tests, that if you choose the "Critical Duty" line of ammo as your primary home/self defense ammunition, you have made an excellent choice. This cartridge will quickly and thoroughly dispatch any bad guys, thugs, or what have you that threaten you or your family.
__________________
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
óRudyard Kipling
Kentguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 13:48   #39
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
Perhaps you mistook what I said as being "heated"- it wasn't. That's why I had the after what I typed.
OK
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 16:54   #40
Gaston Glock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 160
I carry Hornady CD in 9mm

GG
Gaston Glock is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:37.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,153
353 Members
800 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31