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Old 02-08-2013, 00:08   #441
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There is just as much evidence that it was made as there is that it just happened...Two remote possibilities are equally possible, and contradictory at the same time...The answer is profound, and yet trivial at the same time...The middle of the road and most honest approach is that we really don't know...
No there isn't as much evidence that it was made, in fact there is no evidence of such. Even as a believer in God I have to call BS. Again with your grey area sense of superiority. Have some balls for Christ's sake.

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Old 02-08-2013, 00:38   #442
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No there isn't as much evidence that it was made, in fact there is no evidence of such. Even as a believer in God I have to call BS. Again with your grey area sense of superiority. Have some balls for Christ's sake.
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence one way or the other. we have evidence of what occurred after life was here, but virtually none about how it started. There are quite a few contradictory theories.

It's easy to pick a side and declare you are convinced. For many, it's hard to simply state they don't know for sure. Testicles aren't really relevant. Many women scientists would agree.

We know life is what it is today, and there are some ideas of how it began, many different beliefs, but if one is honest, no knowledge of how it really began. The unknown is scary to many.
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Old 02-08-2013, 00:43   #443
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Anyone who does not believe in evolution needs to take a genetics class. It's as plain as day. The DNA of a Human and the rest of the great apes are above 98 percent similarity. Mitochondria and Chloroplasts have their own DNA, SEPERATE from the cells, showing that those organelles were once independent organisms. Humans have witnessed evolution, in real time. New species from previous populations arise frequently. MRSA for example. Evolved from STAFF bacteria recently.

Further reading on this subject: Genetric Drift, Gene Flow and Mutations.
Adaptation has been observed very well, evolution is almost certainly occurring, and has been for a long time.

MRSA is still Staph though (not staff). Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:03   #444
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As far as I can tell, there is no evidence one way or the other. we have evidence of what occurred after life was here, but virtually none about how it started. There are quite a few contradictory theories.

It's easy to pick a side and declare you are convinced. For many, it's hard to simply state they don't know for sure. Testicles aren't really relevant. Many women scientists would agree.

We know life is what it is today, and there are some ideas of how it began, many different beliefs, but if one is honest, no knowledge of how it really began. The unknown is scary to many.
I don't know but I believe. Thing is I believe in the things there is evidence for. See it's not that hard. As far as what you can tell...you couldn't tell sh** if it was fresh out of you ass.

And again with your insinuations that I am scared of something. Well it sure as heck isn't you or any of the assclown beliefs you have. Damn there I was not being sensitive again. I apologize for owning you over and over. It was not my intention to make you so insecure as to feel the need to do so.

It's clear that you have issues regarding science and religion that make you feel inferior to others else you would not take the stupid stances that you do.

I'll pray that you can one day get over it. (insert sarcastic smilee here)
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:07   #445
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Adaptation has been observed very well, evolution is almost certainly occurring, and has been for a long time.

MRSA is still Staph though (not staff). Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus.
I have to disagree, adaption is an evolutionary process. I am however wrong, MRSA is the same species. This is what happens when we ecologists dable where we shouldn't.

Evolution is a shift in allele frequencies over time...

Since adaption is a mechanism of evolution, if we see cases of adaption we are watching evolution.

I think many people get caught up in this falsehood that one day a prokaryote magically turned into a eukaryote in one cell division.

We have to stop thinking in black and white and get with the grey.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:08   #446
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I don't know but I believe. Thing is I believe in the things there is evidence for. See it's not that hard. As far as what you can tell...you couldn't tell sh** if it was fresh out of you ass.

And again with your insinuations that I am scared of something. Well it sure as heck isn't you or any of the assclown beliefs you have. Damn there I was not being sensitive again. I apologize for owning you over and over. It was not my intention to make you so insecure as to feel the need to do so.

It's clear that you have issues regarding science and religion that make you feel inferior to others else you would not take the stupid stances that you do.

I'll pray that you can one day get over it. (insert sarcastic smilee here)
Are you on something you should not be, or off something you should be on?

This is only a question.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:11   #447
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I have to disagree, adaption is an evolutionary process. I am however wrong, MRSA is the same species. This is what happens when we ecologists dable where we shouldn't.

Evolution is a shift in allele frequencies over time...

Since adaption is a mechanism of evolution, if we see cases of adaption we are watching evolution.

I think many people get caught up in this falsehood that one day a prokaryote magically turned into a eukaryote in one cell division.

We have to stop thinking in black and white and get with the grey.
As I've previously stated, I do believe in evolution. The evidence is out there. But evolution is something that occurred after life as we know it existed. How it first came about is still a mystery, and it's OK if it is. It's even OK if people believe that it just happened, or if it was made, or neither.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:15   #448
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Doc,

you may find this fascinating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

Endosymbiotic theory is one of my favorites to cover.

Ill be honest with you, I think something got the ball rolling, something beyond the scope of our universe.

However, I have seen too much evidence to believe that life did not start from the formation of amino acids in the prebiotic soup that earth was 4 billion years ago.

In fact, we now have identified amino acids in gas clouds in deep space.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:42   #449
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The symbiotic relationship between relatively distant parts of a cell necessary to maintain homeostasis, and ultimately replication is a wonder. Then that cells in distant parts of other complex organisms must differentiate and cooperate in distant parts of the organism is a wonder, then the relationships between different organisms, some only interacting once, but still necessary for the survival of another.... It's all pretty cool. It at least opens up the possibility of a design. It's not certain either way for me.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:34   #450
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There is just as much evidence that it was made as there is that it just happened.
Really? I have never seen any such evidence. Care to point me in the right direction? How would you conduct experiments, and what would those experiments be, to support creationism?

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Which is to say just about none on both sides.
Nope. It is to say that there's not much on the side of abiogenesis and absolutely none on the side of creationism. None that I've seen, anyway, feel free to educate me.

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It's hard for a person that has made up their mind beyond questioning it to understand, but it is very hard to imagine it being made, and equally very hard to imagine it just coalescing together.
I haven't made up my mind, though. I'm perfectly comfortable saying we don't know. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying abiogenesis is more likely, since we have physical, repeatable evidence of how it *might* have happened. Creationism has nothing more than mythology that wasn't even a new idea when the Christians wrote it down nearly two thousand years ago.

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One is likely possible, which would completely negate the other.

Two remote possibilities are equally possible, and contradictory at the same time.
I have no idea what you're attempting to say here.

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It does seem that many people feel a need to choose sides, and some, can just admit that they don't know, and still decide what to have for dinner, what to tell their kids calling from college asking for money, and what to do at work the next day.

The answer is profound, and yet trivial at the same time.
No choosing sides from me, just a realistic acknowledgement of which side of the argument has any actual evidence.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:02   #451
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Really? I have never seen any such evidence. Care to point me in the right direction? How would you conduct experiments, and what would those experiments be, to support creationism?



Nope. It is to say that there's not much on the side of abiogenesis and absolutely none on the side of creationism. None that I've seen, anyway, feel free to educate me.



I haven't made up my mind, though. I'm perfectly comfortable saying we don't know. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying abiogenesis is more likely, since we have physical, repeatable evidence of how it *might* have happened. Creationism has nothing more than mythology that wasn't even a new idea when the Christians wrote it down nearly two thousand years ago.



I have no idea what you're attempting to say here.



No choosing sides from me, just a realistic acknowledgement of which side of the argument has any actual evidence.

So, I'm just closer to the middle than you, I see it as roughly 50/50. Are you at around 70/30? 90/10?
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:09   #452
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So, no evidence of Creationism, CavDoc? I thought you said they had "roughly the same amount" of evidence?

Hard to calculate odds on a scenario that has zero evidence to back it up, no?

I have 0% confidence that unicorns or bigfoot exist, either, but I don't *know* that they don't.

I allow for their possibility, just like I do creationism, but I give no real thought to how likely any of them might be without one single piece of credible evidence.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:45   #453
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Roughly the same amount, which is about none. At some point in time, the first living cell came into being that was capable of maintaining homeostasis and replicating itself into another cell that could maintain homeostasis. There is a lot of speculation I've seen on both sides, but nothing I would call actual evidence for how that moment came to be.

That first cell on earth either arrived here from somewhere else, was made, or occurred as a natural process. All of those are remotely possible with the current evidence. But even if it came here from somewhere else, at some point life was either made or just happened. Whichever explanation is correct is 100% correct, or at least close to that.

So two basic possibilities, both hard to imagine with current evidence, and roughly equally possible with what I think is known.

The mythical creatures some keep bringing up are a diversionary tactic. I've often wondered how some people consider that a valid argument. It doesn't have anything to do with what we do know, life exists. We don't know how it started.

80/20? I know it's hard to assign a number to, but all I'm asking for is a gross estimate.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:01   #454
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Roughly the same amount, which is about none. At some point in time, the first living cell came into being that was capable of maintaining homeostasis and replicating itself into another cell that could maintain homeostasis. There is a lot of speculation I've seen on both sides, but nothing I would call actual evidence for how that moment came to be.
OK, so you don't consider self-replicating RNA to be evidence that supports the possibility of abiogenesis?

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That first cell on earth either arrived here from somewhere else, was made, or occurred as a natural process. All of those are remotely possible with the current evidence. But even if it came here from somewhere else, at some point life was either made or just happened. Whichever explanation is correct is 100% correct, or at least close to that.
Agreed, I think. What I read here is "Whichever one of the two options ends up being proven, is correct." Is that it? If so, that's not much of a leap.

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So two basic possibilities, both hard to imagine with current evidence, and roughly equally possible with what I think is known.
Do you know of any evidence of creationism?

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The mythical creatures some keep bringing up are a diversionary tactic. I've often wondered how some people consider that a valid argument. It doesn't have anything to do with what we do know, life exists. We don't know how it started.
It's not diversionary, it's an analogy. At least there are pictures some claim to be of a bigfoot. There isn't even that much evidence to support creationism, to my knowledge.

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80/20? I know it's hard to assign a number to, but all I'm asking for is a gross estimate.
As close to 100/0 as you can be without disallowing for the possibility of creationism. Without *any* evidence to support it, I don't see any other logical position.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:10   #455
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OK, so you don't consider self-replicating RNA to be evidence that supports the possibility of abiogenesis?
I think in reality he knows that it does... but his stance is that if we didn't actually see it happen and record it that it's just wild speculation.

And that limitation makes a creator (which hasn't a shred of evidence supporting it) just as likely.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:23   #456
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OK, so you don't consider self-replicating RNA to be evidence that supports the possibility of abiogenesis?
That's one small step toward a very complex structure. It opens the possibility, but no, it's not evidence.

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Agreed, I think. What I read here is "Whichever one of the two options ends up being proven, is correct." Is that it? If so, that's not much of a leap.
. Proof and truth are often confused. Whichever way it actually happened is likely 100% correct. It depends on the level of evidence you consider proof. Some have argued that merely convincing themselves with their beliefs, that is proof.


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Do you know of any evidence of creationism?
Reasonable speculation is all I've seen on both sides, enough to make either possible to consider, nothing convincing either way.

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It's not diversionary, it's an analogy. At least there are pictures some claim to be of a bigfoot. There isn't even that much evidence to support creationism, to my knowledge.
It's not a very good analogy. If we were talking about the origin of a being we didn't know existed, that's only a mildly amusing argumentum ad absurdum, when talking about the origins of a known (life on earth) it doesn't fit at all.

There are no pictures of the moment of the first life on the planet.

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As close to 100/0 as you can be without disallowing for the possibility of creationism. Without *any* evidence to support it, I don't see any other logical position.
That us a pretty firm belief, no? But can you prove your belief to be true?
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:45   #457
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That's one small step toward a very complex structure. It opens the possibility, but no, it's not evidence.
I said "evidence to support the possibility", not "evidence of". What evidence is there to support the possibility of creationism?

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Proof and truth are often confused. Whichever way it actually happened is likely 100% correct. It depends on the level of evidence you consider proof. Some have argued that merely convincing themselves with their beliefs, that is proof.
OK, that makes it even more redundant - "Whichever way it happened is the way it happened." Is that what you're saying? Please tell me I'm still misunderstanding you.


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Reasonable speculation is all I've seen on both sides, enough to make either possible to consider, nothing convincing either way.
Reasonable speculation? Speculation based on a supernatural being, that there is not one shred of evidence to support the existence of, is reasonable to you?



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It's not a very good analogy. If we were talking about the origin of a being we didn't know existed, that's only a mildly amusing argumentum ad absurdum, when talking about the origins of a known (life on earth) it doesn't fit at all.

There are no pictures of the moment of the first life on the planet.
OK, it's not a good analogy for the beginning of life on this planet. However, creationism dictates that the beginning of life on this planet was initiated by a sentient creative being. It is an excellent analogy of belief in that sentient creative being.

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That us a pretty firm belief, no? But can you prove your belief to be true?
Nope. I've never claimed I could. Can you show me how belief in a sentient creative being is *more* logical? At least we've got solid scientific framework for the possibility of abiogenesis.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:46   #458
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As far as I can tell, there is no evidence one way or the other. we have evidence of what occurred after life was here, but virtually none about how it started. There are quite a few contradictory theories.

It's easy to pick a side and declare you are convinced. For many, it's hard to simply state they don't know for sure. Testicles aren't really relevant. Many women scientists would agree.

We know life is what it is today, and there are some ideas of how it began, many different beliefs, but if one is honest, no knowledge of how it really began. The unknown is scary to many.
The unknown is not scary to scientists -- they face it head on in an attempt to change the unknown into known (or at least better understood).

While the origin of life cannot currently be reproduced in a lab by a chemist, there is a lot that is known.

From something that I've previously posted...
Urey-Miller demonstrated that within a few days in the lab, an inert mix could give rise to molecules of relevance and complexity. This experiment produced 4 of 20 amino acids needed to make proteins. Later experiments produced 12 of 20, and an experiment with dilute cyanide produced 7. Clearly it does not require more than a few days in the lab to create some basic building blocks of life.

Since Urey-Miller, 74 amino acids have been found in meteorites including all 20 found in living organisms. This further tells us that there are a variety of atmospheric conditions in the universe capable of producing this building block of life.

Then to get from amino acids to polymers (proteins)... Also in the 1950s Sidney Fox demonstrated that splashing amino acids onto hot, dry volcanic rock instantly produced most of the proteins found in life. Lipids are easier to polymerize into protolife structures that, while not living, are able to mimic processes similar to bacteria -- feeding, excreting and metabolizing starch.

Several mechanisms have been demonstrated for assembling short polymers into longer chains. Zeolites, clay and pyrite are all capable of lining up amino acids which could lead to longer proteins. Pyrite is found in black smokers which are home to some of the most primitive life on earth -- sulfide-reducing Archaebacteria. This suggests to many scientists that life arose not on the surface of the primordial pond, but in a deep-sea hot spring.

Endosymbiosis can take us from here to eukaryotic cells -- I'm getting tired of typing so I'll try to wrap up. This process is supported by some of today's living transitional forms such as Pelomyxa and Giardia.

So, far from proving that abiogenesis is impossible, steps have been demonstrated that would take inorganic material into amino acids to proteins and other polymers to prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells. All the steps are gradual, none require extraordinary circumstances, and none are beyond plausible. Most of the steps can be reproduced in the lab, or are still observed in nature today.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not claiming that this is how life arose from the inert. I'm merely pointing out that while this cannot be replicated today, there is nothing to suggest that it will not be replicated one day.


I understand that you hold on to your middle ground with ardor and faith, but perhaps we can get some clarification on why you seem to give Creation claims as much credence as scientific explanations.

Are there any supernatural claims made by religion that you currently accept as true? Existence of miracles, angels, demons, heaven, hell, God, Devil? Do you currently accept that man, animals, plants, earth and universe were created by a god (or gods)? These are pretty simple "yes" or "not yes" questions. Any answer other than yes must be interpreted as a no. That is not to say that you have concluded that they do not exist, merely that you do not yet accept the claims.

Now, do you accept science has explained anything? Behavior of gravity (even if not the specific mechanism)? The number of probes that have conducted flybys of comets, launched an impactor into a comet traveling 23,000 miles an hour, and possibly landing a probe on a comet by the end of next year, suggests, to me, that we have some level of understanding.

What about Neil Shubin, discoverer of tiktaalik roseae. He and his team analyzed gaps in the fossil record, and understanding that lobe-finned fish could be found 380 million years ago, and the first tetrapods appeared 363 million years ago, they predicted that the transition between them would have had to occur between 380 and 363 million years ago. Then studying maps based on where the earliest tetrapods were found around freshwater sites they identified the Canadian Arctic as the location for their expedition. On their 5th year they found tiktaalik, (transitional species between fish and land animals) just where evolution predicted they would find it.

It seems to me that while not perfect, science has a bit of a track record behind it.

This is your chance to play Devil's Advocate (actually God's Advocate), and present what evidence Creationists have that would warrant placing them on an equal footing in a science class.

-ArtificialGrape

I don't fear or have an issue with Creationism being taught, but it should be taught in a theology, bible study, or even comparative mythology class. But please make the case for why it has earned a place to be taught in a science class.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:11   #459
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I think in reality he knows that it does... but his stance is that if we didn't actually see it happen and record it that it's just wild speculation.

And that limitation makes a creator (which hasn't a shred of evidence supporting it) just as likely.
I'm sure you believe a lot of things to increase your own personnal comfort level.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:16   #460
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
The unknown is not scary to scientists -- they face it head on in an attempt to change the unknown into known (or at least better understood).

While the origin of life cannot currently be reproduced in a lab by a chemist, there is a lot that is known.

I have to point out I have no definite characteristics of a designer if there was one. Omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and worthiness of worship may not be present at all.

From something that I've previously posted...
Urey-Miller demonstrated that within a few days in the lab, an inert mix could give rise to molecules of relevance and complexity. This experiment produced 4 of 20 amino acids needed to make proteins. Later experiments produced 12 of 20, and an experiment with dilute cyanide produced 7. Clearly it does not require more than a few days in the lab to create some basic building blocks of life.

Since Urey-Miller, 74 amino acids have been found in meteorites including all 20 found in living organisms. This further tells us that there are a variety of atmospheric conditions in the universe capable of producing this building block of life.

Then to get from amino acids to polymers (proteins)... Also in the 1950s Sidney Fox demonstrated that splashing amino acids onto hot, dry volcanic rock instantly produced most of the proteins found in life. Lipids are easier to polymerize into protolife structures that, while not living, are able to mimic processes similar to bacteria -- feeding, excreting and metabolizing starch.

Several mechanisms have been demonstrated for assembling short polymers into longer chains. Zeolites, clay and pyrite are all capable of lining up amino acids which could lead to longer proteins. Pyrite is found in black smokers which are home to some of the most primitive life on earth -- sulfide-reducing Archaebacteria. This suggests to many scientists that life arose not on the surface of the primordial pond, but in a deep-sea hot spring.

Endosymbiosis can take us from here to eukaryotic cells -- I'm getting tired of typing so I'll try to wrap up. This process is supported by some of today's living transitional forms such as Pelomyxa and Giardia.

So, far from proving that abiogenesis is impossible, steps have been demonstrated that would take inorganic material into amino acids to proteins and other polymers to prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells. All the steps are gradual, none require extraordinary circumstances, and none are beyond plausible. Most of the steps can be reproduced in the lab, or are still observed in nature today.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not claiming that this is how life arose from the inert. I'm merely pointing out that while this cannot be replicated today, there is nothing to suggest that it will not be replicated one day.


I understand that you hold on to your middle ground with ardor and faith, but perhaps we can get some clarification on why you seem to give Creation claims as much credence as scientific explanations.

Are there any supernatural claims made by religion that you currently accept as true? Existence of miracles, angels, demons, heaven, hell, God, Devil? Do you currently accept that man, animals, plants, earth and universe were created by a god (or gods)? These are pretty simple "yes" or "not yes" questions. Any answer other than yes must be interpreted as a no. That is not to say that you have concluded that they do not exist, merely that you do not yet accept the claims.

Now, do you accept science has explained anything? Behavior of gravity (even if not the specific mechanism)? The number of probes that have conducted flybys of comets, launched an impactor into a comet traveling 23,000 miles an hour, and possibly landing a probe on a comet by the end of next year, suggests, to me, that we have some level of understanding.

What about Neil Shubin, discoverer of tiktaalik roseae. He and his team analyzed gaps in the fossil record, and understanding that lobe-finned fish could be found 380 million years ago, and the first tetrapods appeared 363 million years ago, they predicted that the transition between them would have had to occur between 380 and 363 million years ago. Then studying maps based on where the earliest tetrapods were found around freshwater sites they identified the Canadian Arctic as the location for their expedition. On their 5th year they found tiktaalik, (transitional species between fish and land animals) just where evolution predicted they would find it.

It seems to me that while not perfect, science has a bit of a track record behind it.

This is your chance to play Devil's Advocate (actually God's Advocate), and present what evidence Creationists have that would warrant placing them on an equal footing in a science class.

-ArtificialGrape

I don't fear or have an issue with Creationism being taught, but it should be taught in a theology, bible study, or even comparative mythology class. But please make the case for why it has earned a place to be taught in a science class.

Not everyone is afraid of every unknown. I suspect many of the more invested in a certain belief are. Those that have a passive lack of belief, probably not. I also sincerely doubt than man was created as man in a day or two. I have no reason not to believe in evolution.

It strikes me as funny that carefully constructed and controlled experiments able to create the building blocks of life are used to support that life occurred naturally. Wouldn't making life in a lab support that life could have been made?
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Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-08-2013 at 13:21..
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