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Old 02-08-2013, 10:43   #21
RussP
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For all those with comments and suggestions on this incident, here is the LAPD email contact: contact.lapdonline@gmail.com

If you'd like to express your concerns using social media, this page lists the different Facebook pages for the department: Social Media

Let your voices be heard where it will actually be heard by people involved and with the authority to carry out some of your suggestions.

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Old 02-08-2013, 10:48   #22
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Smacks of "street justice" gone wrong. Having recently been in the exact same situation as the officers involved (fellow agent shot and killed, I was involved in searching for the killer at large) I can personally attest that the temptation to just twitch that trigger finger when you have a bead on the suspected killer is immense, but you have to keep your wits about you. You can't just go "vigilante", because sometimes you don't have all the information, and it IS possible that someone could just be in the "wrong place at the wrong time".

Not saying this is what happened here, just saying it sure doesn't look good for the officers involved.
Well said, sir.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:55   #23
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Yeah, some of y'all need to go on the LAPD Headquarters Facebook Page and read the comments.

I suggest those in LE avoid the page. Seriously, it isn't worth getting your blood pressure up.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:47   #24
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Yeah, some of y'all need to go on the LAPD Headquarters Facebook Page and read the comments.

I suggest those in LE avoid the page. Seriously, it isn't worth getting your blood pressure up.
Its probably nothing like the Los Angeles Times readers comments page, which I read last night. People actively calling for Dorner to kill more, etc.

Playing devil's advocate here, lets go over the chain of events in the day and hours prior to this shooting:

1. The daughter of a well known League (union) Lawyer is killed by a former client who posts a crazy maifesto saying he is going to kill more, and has military training that most officers don't have

2. Protection details are set up. While enroute to a high profile target, two Officers are flagged down on the Suspect and an OIS occurs where the Police Vehicle is turned into swiss cheese, and a fellow LAPD copper is hit.

3. Shortly after, an outside agency unit nearby is ambushed with two officers hit, one killed, the other seriously injured.

You are now protecting another high profile target. You are given a generic description of the vehicle, and a plate that may or may not be right. You see a truck that can match the description, coming right to the target location, lights off. You order it to stop, but it drives right by your roadblock and throws something at the target location.

What would you think? Maybe that you are under attack?

We also don't know if there are any guys helping him out. Based on the comments on the LA Times site, I wouldn't be surprised if there were.

Again, I wasn't there. The entire situation is FUBAR. But there is a lot more going on then what the Media is saying and I am witholding judgement on anyone (both sides, Officers and the women) till all the evidence comes out.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:56   #25
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
...I can personally attest that the temptation to just twitch that trigger finger when you have a bead on the suspected killer is immense, but you have to keep your wits about you...
Yes I think we can all understand that, but you also took one very important step. You identified your target! The officers involved in this shooting did not identify their target, that is what is scariest to me. I can not think of any situation, even full battlefield combat, where it is appropriate to not identify your target. No one is "safe" from these officers.



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Old 02-08-2013, 14:03   #26
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It really reminds me of a loss of perspective and the "tunnel vision" coming on a bit quick and in a larger context than in a gunfight.

The officers lost perspective when it comes to the sheer number of pickups out there, much less the ones that actually match the actual description of the suspect's. They got lost in the tunnel vision convincing themselves that they had the suspect despite all of the peripheral evidence that indicated other wise.

Indeed it was small version of "mob psychology" playing out. Their individual fears fed off each other and therefore fed their mechanism for quelling their fear. That mechanism was gunfire.

Just a hunch.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:06   #27
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I have to admit, that doesn't look very good

People make mistakes, and some people's mistakes are whoppers.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:29   #28
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They've lawyered up... Attorney Glen Jonas said...
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:14   #29
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
It really reminds me of a loss of perspective and the "tunnel vision" coming on a bit quick and in a larger context than in a gunfight.

The officers lost perspective when it comes to the sheer number of pickups out there, much less the ones that actually match the actual description of the suspect's. They got lost in the tunnel vision convincing themselves that they had the suspect despite all of the peripheral evidence that indicated other wise.

Indeed it was small version of "mob psychology" playing out. Their individual fears fed off each other and therefore fed their mechanism for quelling their fear. That mechanism was gunfire.

Just a hunch.
Cops in Redondo beach also fired on a Honda Ridgeline.

As a guy who has 135K on his Nissan Titan (which I sure as HECK would not be driving around LA these days) I'm a bit insulted anyone could mistake a Ridgeline for my actual pickup.


In the link Russ put up, lawyer says the Taco was fire on without any command to stop. Who knows?

Thing is, this is not roadblock duty in the sandbox -- fail to stop or slow at the checkpoint and get lit up. You just cannot apply those ROE in Los Angeles, even outside the home of an HVT LEO brass you are guarding.
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Old 02-08-2013, 17:02   #30
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Good eye on the shotgun shells. I was wondering about the larger holes, like the top right (passenger side) of that back windshield. Either a good group, or a strange break, or maybe caused by the shotgun?
To Mrs Vr's point, I'm not bashing LEO's; California has a serious predator/assassin on the loose. This is a guy has at least some knowledge of police tactics, was fired 5 years ago so could have a prepared strategy - he could have been planning this for years. My concern is these particular officers.

I've shot the Federal Flight Control; that stuff holds a pretty tight group even out to 20 or more yards. Considering the tire shot has only one hole in the mud flap you have at least one shotgun and one pistol.

These guys must have thought it was the wild west.
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Old 02-08-2013, 17:43   #31
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"Again, I wasn't there. The entire situation is FUBAR. But there is a lot more going on then what the Media is saying and I am witholding judgement on anyone (both sides, Officers and the women) till all the evidence comes out. "- Glocker Rob

True, we ought to exercise caution in making WA statements about something of which we have scant details... but there were unarmed women shot by uniformed police-- that seems like a given at this point.

Oh, and all the evidence will come out --- in the trials.. as it should.
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Old 02-08-2013, 17:57   #32
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I usually side with the police, but it's mainly because the people who post about them here know so little about law/police/crime/etc. that their comments and conclusions are silly.

In this case, what the police did was stupid. I can't see any excuse for it and it smells like panic.

The two women in the blue truck were illegal aliens (hard to believe in Los Angeles right). Driving very slow, no lights, and dark tinted windows. I'm sure some command (in english) was given with no response.

Over reaction by the LAPD? Yeah, ok.

I'm sure if they were after a suspect that didn't kill ove of thier own, things would have been different.

Last edited by MotoGlock; 02-08-2013 at 17:59..
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Old 02-08-2013, 18:19   #33
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The two women in the blue truck were illegal aliens (hard to believe in Los Angeles right). Driving very slow, no lights, and dark tinted windows. I'm sure some command (in english) was given with no response.

Over reaction by the LAPD? Yeah, ok.

I'm sure if they were after a suspect that didn't kill ove of thier own, things would have been different.
It doesn't matter if the cops were right or wrong in their read of things. It matters if they were reasonable.

I can't find any reasonableness here. The use of deadly force is generally in immediate defense of life. The shooter has to be able to articulate that the shootee had the means, opportunity and intent to cause death or serious injury to an innocent. I can't see where any of those factors can be articulated here.
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Old 02-08-2013, 18:32   #34
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Originally Posted by MotoGlock View Post
The two women in the blue truck were illegal aliens (hard to believe in Los Angeles right). Driving very slow, no lights, and dark tinted windows. I'm sure some command (in english) was given with no response.

Over reaction by the LAPD? Yeah, ok.

I'm sure if they were after a suspect that didn't kill ove of thier own, things would have been different.
Can't find where they were illegal aliens (respectfully) can you give us a link??
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Old 02-08-2013, 19:25   #35
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Yes I think we can all understand that, but you also took one very important step. You identified your target! The officers involved in this shooting did not identify their target, that is what is scariest to me. I can not think of any situation, even full battlefield combat, where it is appropriate to not identify your target. No one is "safe" from these officers.



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you are totally right, and I am going out on a limb and say well these two ladies will be wealthy after their attorney gets done with the city and police dept.
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Old 02-08-2013, 19:34   #36
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Hmmm...I thought id your target was one of the first rules of gun safety...Ooops...
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Old 02-08-2013, 20:24   #37
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I've defended LE in more than one thread about controversial incidents; but, this has tunnel vision written all over it. It really looks like they either panicked or were too eager to bring down the guy who had gunned down fellow officers.

I have no idea how I would react to a situation where someone was actively hunting me down, I can imagine the stress of something like that would make me a little fast on the trigger, but I do know where I'd end up if it was a bad shoot.
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Old 02-08-2013, 20:30   #38
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It's only gonna get worse!

LAPD had a restless night..............

hiding under their beds!

I wonder if Chris still has a LAPD uniform, that would make things interesting for the police. He could walk up to any of their protection details and open a big can of trouble on those officers!
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:34   #39
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It doesn't matter if the cops were right or wrong in their read of things. It matters if they were reasonable.
. . . . .
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:46   #40
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I'm not either defending or blaming the cops on this one (at least until more facts come out). But the Rule of Law should be applied equally to everyone.

If the cops screwed up, they should face the exact same criminal charges that a private citizen would. Maybe even a bit harsher, as they are supposed to have had more training to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

If there were extenuating circumstances, then the same benefit of the doubt needs to be applied to all civilian self-defense shootings as well.

Last edited by glock39; 02-09-2013 at 11:21..
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