GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-13-2013, 08:18   #451
txleapd
Hook 'Em Up
 
txleapd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 6,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
That's all great and whatnot but whenever it becomes acceptable to burn houses with people inside (see: Waco) because they are an alleged and perceived threat, we have crossed the rubicon as a society that believes in the rule of law and have moved into Judge Dredd territory.

Im sorry but if you joined the police force and suddenly find yourself in a situation "too dangerous" to follow the rule book (you did say such things aren't policy) in ending the standoff with a suspect then you probably shouldn't be police. Plus there's a prohibition against something called "cruel and unusual punishment". Burning someone alive is what radical muslims do. Are you ok with doing what they do to address a problem?
Legally speaking It doesn't really matter if the fire started because cops pumped CS canisters and flashbangs in the house, or if they doused it in gas and lit a match themselves.

He murdered at least 5 people. The cops had been in a sustained gunfight with him, he was reasonably believed to be in possession of a .50 cal rifle, and was a continuing threat.

Deadly force is deadly force. If its authorized, it doesn't matter if you use a hammer, a handgun, or a house fire.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
1911 Club #75
Kahr Club #286
Lone Star Glockers #919


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” Sigmund Freud
txleapd is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:22   #452
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,300
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
Legally speaking It doesn't really matter if the fire started because cops pumped CS canisters and flashbangs in the house, or if they doused it in gas and lit a match themselves.

He murdered at least 5 people. The cops had been in a sustained gunfight with him, he was reasonably believed to be in possession of a .50 cal rifle, and was a continuing threat.

Deadly force is deadly force. If its authorized, it doesn't matter if you use a hammer, a handgun, or a house fire.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
I remember this from the academy when the instructor was talking about using deadly force and he gave a scenario where we were justified in shooting the guy. The whole class agreed that we could use our sidearms in that situation.

Then he goes, how about your gun jams or whatever, and you take out your folding knife and stab the guy a few times? Some people were hesitant and said probably not. The instructor said why not? If you are authorized for deadly force, it doesn't matter what deadly force you use.

Deadly force is deadly force. Might not be pretty and might not be what you think or what most people find acceptable, but it doesn't matter under the law. There's nothing that says you have to use one type of deadly force over another if it is called for.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is online now  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:32   #453
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Yea one of the classes I was a part of I asked the class when you see an officer that is pinned down in a gun fight and the suspect is in front of you with his back turned as you pull in with your patrol vehicle what is the best course of action? Most responded to stop, get out and engage with the firearm but one who is now a patrolman with my agency said..hmmm I would run him over with my car!

I had a smile from ear to ear.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-
spcwes is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:33   #454
RyanNREMTP
Inactive/Banned
 
RyanNREMTP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Waco, Texas
Posts: 4,524
Fox News is reporting that there was a charred body in the cabin along with a wallet with the murderer's ID in it. Still like everyone else no rest until it's confirmed that the murderer is dead.
__________________
Support Free Range Shopping Carts on Facebook.
RyanNREMTP is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:05   #455
LEOson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Middle America
Posts: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Scanner recording here, clearly showing the cops intentionally started the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdqy...ayer_embedded#!

Regardless of what you feel about Dorner, we can not allow the rule of law to be pushed aside whenever it is expedient, particularly when that power is in the hands of the gov't. That's how this country got into the mess it's in now.
All I hear in that clip is them talking about deploying burners, which has already been stated is CS. So no I don't believe they intentionally set the house on fire.
LEOson is online now  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:14   #456
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,558
Blog Entries: 1


damnant quod non intellegunt
TBO is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:25   #457
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,152
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEOson View Post
All I hear in that clip is them talking about deploying burners, which has already been stated is CS. So no I don't believe they intentionally set the house on fire.
Barricaded gunman 101, after it has been confirmed no hostages, surrender order, Burning Cs/Cn depending on preference.

This is the concept simplified for the simple.
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:28   #458
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
damnant quod non intellegunt
Even if they did the ones doing so here would not stop.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-
spcwes is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:55   #459
ICARRY2
NRA Life Member
 
ICARRY2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
That's all great and whatnot but whenever it becomes acceptable to burn houses with people inside (see: Waco) because they are an alleged and perceived threat, we have crossed the rubicon as a society that believes in the rule of law and have moved into Judge Dredd territory.

Im sorry but if you joined the police force and suddenly find yourself in a situation "too dangerous" to follow the rule book (you did say such things aren't policy) in ending the standoff with a suspect then you probably shouldn't be police. Plus there's a prohibition against something called "cruel and unusual punishment". Burning someone alive is what radical muslims do. Are you ok with doing what they do to address a problem?
I'm not a leo, but Dorner was not an alleged or perceived threat. He was an imminent threat. A threat where the actions of the police were absolutely 100% justified.
ICARRY2 is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:59   #460
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,558
Blog Entries: 1


The ignore button can save you from seeing excrement, unless someone quotes it.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Copatalk 2
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:00   #461
RWBlue
CLM Number 120
Mr. CISSP, CISA
 
RWBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
damnant quod non intellegunt
I am talking process and others are talking emotion.

It is the reason I am constantly in the middle on GT. The cop haters think the cops are always wrong. The cop lovers always think the cops are right.

I believe in that the system works most of the time, WHEN the system is used.
__________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
RWBlue is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:05   #462
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,558
Blog Entries: 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
I am talking process and others are talking emotion.

It is the reason I am constantly in the middle on GT. The cop haters think the cops are always wrong. The cop lovers always think the cops are right.

I believe in that the system works most of the time, WHEN the system is used.
Do you have relevant real world experience/training/knowledge?


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Copatalk 2
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:12   #463
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,536
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
It is the reason I am constantly in the middle on GT. The cop haters think the cops are always wrong. The cop lovers always think the cops are right.
What about those in and around law enforcement who are slow to condemn until all facts are discovered and investigated? Where do they fall into the order?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:43   #464
indigent
Bamboozled
 
indigent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tx
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
I am talking process and others are talking emotion.

It is the reason I am constantly in the middle on GT. The cop haters think the cops are always wrong. The cop lovers always think the cops are right.

I believe in that the system works most of the time, WHEN the system is used.
What system are you speaking of.....
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
indigent is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:59   #465
Marlowe
Senior Member
 
Marlowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 236
Seems pretty likely to me that, do to the threat presented by Dorner (a threat established by his behavior last week and yesterday), the San Bernardino SWAT team attempted to induce his surrender with CS gas.

No drones.

No napalm.

CS gas. A long accepted tool in the tactical toolbox.

They pulled off walls to expose him, and to reduce the risk to their deputies.

A shot was heard. Quite possibly Dorner shot himself.

A fire began.

Why?

No one knows yet, for certain. Arson investigators will determine the cause and origin of the fire. Maybe it was inadvertently due to the CS deployment, or maybe Dorner somehow caused it.

In any event, it seems to me, based on the initial reporting, that LE was trying to induce surrender, while mitigating the risk to their deputies and did not use direct lethal force on Dorner...meaning, no one intentionally shot him down, nor directly engaged him.

Yet, predictably, the forever Righteously Indignant types here, always in search of an example of government over-reaching, want to harp on this situation.

Ever hear of the boy who cried wolf? Harping on situations like this prematurely---before the logical investigations are completed and the facts known---and you lose all credibility.

Who will listen when you are complaining of real government over-reaching if you exhaust your credibility with knee jerk and ill informed accusations such as in this thread?
__________________
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." President John F. Kennedy
Marlowe is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:07   #466
indigent
Bamboozled
 
indigent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tx
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
A fire began.

Why?
Oh that's easy...... I think this is how the hosemonkeys explain it now

Cop Talk

__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
indigent is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:02   #467
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,864
The fire started because police tossed in burners. There's audio of it on youtube. One cop is saying "burn mother*******"

Somebody's writing a check for that stupid comment.
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:29   #468
Cav
Senior Member
 
Cav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The Great State of Texas
Posts: 2,244
So can the home owners file arson charges? I mean someone burned everything they owned...
__________________
We need more restrictions on the 1st Amendment and less on the 2nd Amendment.
Cav is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:40   #469
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,816
Odd...where I live, Police Scanners are useless. They made changes last year and I believe it's all encrypted. Just seems odd that CA would be further behind the times.

Not questioning the accuracy of the audio files, etc. Just a curious observation.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:47   #470
knotquiteawake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Rowlett, TX (Dallas or there abouts
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
Odd...where I live, Police Scanners are useless. They made changes last year and I believe it's all encrypted. Just seems odd that CA would be further behind the times.

Not questioning the accuracy of the audio files, etc. Just a curious observation.
Some areas are and some aren't. The LAPD has digital encrypted radios so even the $$$$ digital scanners are useless. Other surrounding agencies have not switched over to digital, its really really expensive. Range is better on some of the old systems too which is better for the rural areas like Big Bear.
knotquiteawake is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:49   #471
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
Odd...where I live, Police Scanners are useless. They made changes last year and I believe it's all encrypted. Just seems odd that CA would be further behind the times.

Not questioning the accuracy of the audio files, etc. Just a curious observation.
You can get scanners that will pick up trunking radio systems.
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:49   #472
indigent
Bamboozled
 
indigent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tx
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav View Post
So can the home owners file arson charges? I mean someone burned everything they owned...
I see what you did there.
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
indigent is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:52   #473
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
I am talking process and others are talking emotion.

It is the reason I am constantly in the middle on GT. The cop haters think the cops are always wrong. The cop lovers always think the cops are right.

I believe in that the system works most of the time, WHEN the system is used.
As RussP said, some us reserve judgement until the facts are assembled. Just like Sandy Hook. In any incident, there's a lot of emotion, rush to judgement, errors in reporting, etc.

I don't think any of us sitting at a computer can determine whether the police took actions that were appropriate or not.

Based on the facts so far, I think I'd be roasting hot dogs over his burning corpse if I was the father of the daughter that he murdered and later taunted the father. The man was a sick bastard. I wouldn't condone the actions of the cops if they intentionally prevented him from surrendering and killed him. However I won't mourn his loss either.

Let's see the facts. For example, there are reports that he tried to leave and "was pushed back into the cabin". Did that really happen? What means were used to "push him back inside"? Was he armed and trying to leave...then LE shot at him & forced him back inside? Who knows.

Let's be mindful of one thing. The cops didn't cause this whole scene. They were hunting this man for a reason. His actions put himself in a situation where he inevitably lost his life (assuming he was the charred corpse that they found).
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:56   #474
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,864
But not for the actions of Dorner, Dorner would still be alive.
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline  
Old 02-13-2013, 13:04   #475
Seriously?
U.S.A.F. Ret.
 
Seriously?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: In the woods.
Posts: 178
I notice the department re-opened his case, but are they just going to investigate themselves again?

So......coverup #2 and all forgotten?
Seriously? is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:04.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,243
398 Members
845 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42