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Old 02-12-2013, 15:16   #21
Coffee Dog
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Thank-You for your tests. Shooting into water jugs is fun but does not give you an accurate picture(ballistics) of what
performance you actually get from any one ammo. When shooting into water the water pretty much acts like a solid wall-thus giving you false expansion readings and false
penetration readings. Why do you think people jump off a bridge? Because the water they are jumping into pretty much acts like a wall thus making their jump very terminal.

Shooting in gel is not totally accurate but much more accurate then shooting water jugs. The gel has a give & take response (similar to the human body) giving you both an accurate expansion reading & pentration reading. But
remember no gel test totally copies the affect of ammo shot into
a human body.

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 02-12-2013 at 18:11..
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Old 02-12-2013, 17:38   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
OK, Range Gomer. Keep shooting your "scientific" milk jugs and watch your "6" for Aquaman!!
Why do you keep going? I agree with the Op that if you don't have anything to add of importance stop with the insults. If a man wants to shoot milkjuggs who gives a crap? I like shooting them to just to watch them explode. Hell I like watching other people shoot them so I can watch them explode...
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Old 02-12-2013, 20:41   #23
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I agree that water jugs aren't scientific, but by pure definition neither are calibrated white lab coat tests scientific. Calibrated jell is based upon pig tissue that closely resembles human tissue but isn't actually human tissue. Only testing through human subjects will yield more accurate information and we all know that isn't going to happen until the New Stalinist Party takes over America.

I like the backyard tests as well as the white coat lab guy tests because it provides a way to compare the different results with specific ammos. Once I have satisfied myself that the specific ammo performs as advertised in all tests I will shoot that ammo to ensure complete gun/ammo reliability. Since there's no ironclad guarantees with anything in life a person makes his/her choices on the best information available.

The best recommendations for ammo performance comes from the "street" results in the aftermath of documented LEO encounters with criminals, from what I have learned, combined with the individual's testing of that ammo in his/her gun/ammo combination.
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Old 02-13-2013, 00:07   #24
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I agree that water jugs aren't scientific, but by pure definition neither are calibrated white lab coat tests scientific. Calibrated jell is based upon pig tissue that closely resembles human tissue but isn't actually human tissue. Only testing through human subjects will yield more accurate information and we all know that isn't going to happen until the New Stalinist Party takes over America.

I like the backyard tests as well as the white coat lab guy tests because it provides a way to compare the different results with specific ammos. Once I have satisfied myself that the specific ammo performs as advertised in all tests I will shoot that ammo to ensure complete gun/ammo reliability. Since there's no ironclad guarantees with anything in life a person makes his/her choices on the best information available.

The best recommendations for ammo performance comes from the "street" results in the aftermath of documented LEO encounters with criminals, from what I have learned, combined with the individual's testing of that ammo in his/her gun/ammo combination.
^ This
The gel doesn't test the hydraulic effect of a bullet either. People put way to much stock in that gel test. The tests were never supposed to test the bullet damage to a human, they were designed to test bullet performance in a substance that is like tissue.
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Old 02-13-2013, 00:44   #25
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Over the years I have tested tons of hard cast and FMJ handgun bullets in wood. Heavy weight hardcast bullets cut straight through and make big exit holes. Flat point Cor Bon Penetrators will as well and are even tougher. Sierra 300 grain .45 bullets really do have a hard core as do their 300 grain .44's. They will penetrate similar to a hard cast in a handgun if you prefer a jacketed bullet in your big bore handgun. The original Freedom Arms 300 grain jacketed bullet for the 454 is even tougher than the Sierra. A 200 grain 357 Magnum hardcast running at 1200+ will give a good 44 Magnum a run for the money as far as penetration goes. Sometimes folks just like figuring things out for themselves. Read Elmer Keith's books and he enjoyed bullet testing as well. And those Keith bullets will go deep and straight as well.

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Old 02-13-2013, 09:45   #26
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Shooting water jugs IS scientific actually. If it is a test that can be easily controlled and repeated it is scientific. It allows people to compare differences between one or two variables accurately for relatively low cost. What it is NOT perhaps, is as others are stating above very representative about what happens to a human body. There is however a correlation. Ballistics aren't as complicated as some people here would have you believe. With hollow points, generally, higher velocity yields more trauma, with larger secondary cavities. To a point this will be at the cost of penetration distance. After a certain point, the bullet will "over expand" and penetration will start to increase again... as we continue to increase the velocity, the bullet will begin to fragment. (Another place I am often scratching my head as many on this forum says that is "bad" because the bullet is "failing"... as long as penetration is sufficient, there is no way in Haydes I would call that a failure.) In handguns, that's about the end of it, because it's very difficult to get the velocity up to rifle speeds with a 4" barrel, not to mention the recoil becomes unwieldy.
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Old 02-14-2013, 16:34   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak.Hiker View Post
Over the years I have tested tons of hard cast and FMJ handgun bullets in wood. Heavy weight hardcast bullets cut straight through and make big exit holes. Flat point Cor Bon Penetrators will as well and are even tougher. Sierra 300 grain .45 bullets really do have a hard core as do their 300 grain .44's. They will penetrate similar to a hard cast in a handgun if you prefer a jacketed bullet in your big bore handgun. The original Freedom Arms 300 grain jacketed bullet for the 454 is even tougher than the Sierra. A 200 grain 357 Magnum hardcast running at 1200+ will give a good 44 Magnum a run for the money as far as penetration goes. Sometimes folks just like figuring things out for themselves. Read Elmer Keith's books and he enjoyed bullet testing as well. And those Keith bullets will go deep and straight as well.
Bullet casting sure does increase the options.
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