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Old 02-15-2013, 12:23   #676
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wingryder,
Very good U Tube.

English
Indeed.

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There's the most extroardinary resistance among some people to recognizing this definition of atheism.
Also indeed.
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Old 02-15-2013, 14:51   #677
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Of the atheists in this thread, how many of us are *certain* that no gods exist or have ever existed? Not me.
I’m certain, the same way I’m certain Santa Claus, Thor, Zeus and the Easter Bunny don’t exist and have never existed.

That’s not to say that beings with more intelligence or longer lives than humans or technology that we’d see as almost magical don’t exist or have never existed. That’s possible. But if so, they’d be subject to the same laws of physics that govern the rest of the universe. They wouldn’t have “supernatural” powers and therefore wouldn’t be gods.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:52   #678
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"Have you stopped beating your wife" has an unproven assertion, just like your now locked thread. It's not the same thing.
A lot of unproven things are held as valid opinions. The longer I hanged around here, the more I was sure that, for many, atheism is a religion. It's not only the definitions, but the fervor of their faith demonstrated by intolerance of other faiths, describing other beliefs as a scourge, the admitted trolling and stalking of threads not discussing whether or not a deity exists, and the never ending proselytizing.

If you'll forgive the term, it's not just literally true, but true in spirit also.

Now, that being said, there are some atheistic agnostics that don't have a firm belief that there is and has been no deity, and if you are one of those, and have not been taking part in religious intolerance, you're not included in the evangelical atheist bucket in my opinion, so take a breath and relax, I'm not talking about you.

And if you do fall in the evangelical atheist (religious) bucket for me, just remember, it's only my opinion. It does you no harm whatsoever. I'm just this guy posting on the Internet, I'm not going to make you get up early on Sundays to go to atheist church or anything else. For most of the guys I consider evangelical atheists, they really don't care much for me anyway, so there is really nothing to get upset about.

There are going to be different opinions. It happens.


Back to the topic, if someone had asked me if I had stopped beating my wife yet, and demanded a yes or no answer, I simply would not comply with their demand and answer the question honestly, that I never started beating her. Any man (including me) that knew her and thought beating Mrs. Cavalry Doc was a good option, is a guy with no interest in self preservation.

Now around here, you are chastised for avoiding the question for not slamming your foot into the bear trap, which is cute and all, but I'd rather be honest in my answer. A week ago, several of the same guys insinuating that I am really an atheist were claiming that I was a theist in disguise. Also humorous.

You all can have an opinion too. If you want to think of me as an atheist, a theist, religious etc, it does me no harm, and I'll just politely disagree. I think that's fair. Variety is a good thing in opinions.

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Old 02-16-2013, 08:27   #679
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The longer I hanged around here, the more I was sure that, for many, atheism is a religion.
That, sir, is complete and utter B.S. You were sure "atheism is a religion" before you even started posting in this forum.

So don't act like you've been all reasonable about it and just getting more and more sure the more you hang around here - because people remember things, you know? Before you started http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322 , you posted in here very little, if at all, and you certainly appear to be sure in that thread.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:15   #680
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Enthusiasm for something, rejection of other things, proselytizing in its favour and even evangelical activity for it are not determinants of religion. It is common for an individual to be enthusiastic about Microsoft windows and reject Linux. Given the opportunity it is quite normal for such an individual to proselytize quite passionately in favour of Microsoft. I doubt that such a person would go from door to door trying to persuade people to join his support of Microsoft. That would be strange, but then, I doubt that any atheists here, or possibly at all, would engage in such an evangelical activity. It is a very natural thing to argue in favour of your opinions, but that does not mean that all such opinions or beliefs are religious. The fact that the religious talk of their "belief" does not imply that all belief is of a religious nature. To believe otherwise is no more than becoming entangled in a trivial linguistic trap.

All religions are based on some kind of supernatural concept. In most cases that is some kind of God or gods. In the case of the Buddhists it is the wheel of existence and re-incarnation. In the case of the Communists and Socialists, it is the perfectibility of man and the eventual withering away of the state. To the later can be added the idea that the virtue of mankind is located in the workers. These Marxist ideas are not supernatural in the sense of gods but are supernatural in the sense that they can never happen and are simply silly - they are not a part of the natural world and cannot become so. It is sad and enormously harmful that so many can be inspired by such supernatural nonsense to commit so much evil, but we must accept that this is the tendency of much of mankind. That is an idea that is worth arguing for with passion since it has profound effects on all of us.

Further to that, it occurred to me that I have gone through my life since the age of about eight thinking about atheism and its implications to how I lived my life. I have brought up my children as free of religion as possible but where I have failed, and where I think atheists as a whole have failed, is in passing on those ideas about living as an atheist. My children, now adult, are delightful and well educated individuals, yet in a sense they live in a kind of partial moral vacuum. The inherit their morality via a kind of osmosis from a generally kind and considerate peer group, but they have never needed to think about why those morals are good or, in some cases, bad. In general they suffer from an excess of compassion which blocks their view of reality. What this all means, and of course there is much more, is that atheists need to be more like religious groups in the sense that they need to think and communicate more about the nature and basis of morality in an entirely real way,rather than one descended from the supernatural way of religions. That still will not make atheism a religion.

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Old 02-16-2013, 13:10   #681
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Back to the topic, if someone had asked me if I had stopped beating my wife yet, and demanded a yes or no answer, I simply would not comply with their demand and answer the question honestly, that I never started beating her. Any man (including me) that knew her and thought beating Mrs. Cavalry Doc was a good option, is a guy with no interest in self preservation.

Now around here, you are chastised for avoiding the question for not slamming your foot into the bear trap, which is cute and all, but I'd rather be honest in my answer.
As I pointed out, "have you stopped beating your wife?" has the unproven assertion that you, at some point in time, beat your wife, and is clearly a no-win situation for somebody that has never beat their wife.

Is there any specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that you currently accept is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god? This question has no such beating-your-wife "trap". For all non-theists the answer is "no". It's not complicated, and it is not asserting that no god exists (or existed).

Your considering this a bear trap and refusing to answer is probably the source of frustration for those that may be frustrated. As for me, it doesn't cause me any frustration, because your answer is perfectly clear.

There is no specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that Cavalry Doc currently accepts is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god. As said before, you can easily prove this wrong by naming a god that you accept as a true god.

I'm not spinning, twisting or putting words in your mouth, rather summarizing what you have said time and again in this forum.

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A week ago, several of the same guys insinuating that I am really an atheist were claiming that I was a theist in disguise. Also humorous.
While I do not consider you a theist in disguise, I can understand their confusion. I have never encountered a non-theist that was such a staunch supporter of Intelligent Design, while at the same time cannot provide a single example of a supernatural claim that religion has made that is correct. You also practically parrot the ID mantra of "teach the controversy" when, within the scientific community, no such controversy exists.

Happy Sabbath to you, just the same.

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Old 02-16-2013, 15:53   #682
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
As I pointed out, "have you stopped beating your wife?" has the unproven assertion that you, at some point in time, beat your wife, and is clearly a no-win situation for somebody that has never beat their wife.

Is there any specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that you currently accept is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god? This question has no such beating-your-wife "trap". For all non-theists the answer is "no". It's not complicated, and it is not asserting that no god exists (or existed).

Your considering this a bear trap and refusing to answer is probably the source of frustration for those that may be frustrated. As for me, it doesn't cause me any frustration, because your answer is perfectly clear.

There is no specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that Cavalry Doc currently accepts is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god. As said before, you can easily prove this wrong by naming a god that you accept as a true god.

I'm not spinning, twisting or putting words in your mouth, rather summarizing what you have said time and again in this forum.



While I do not consider you a theist in disguise, I can understand their confusion. I have never encountered a non-theist that was such a staunch supporter of Intelligent Design, while at the same time cannot provide a single example of a supernatural claim that religion has made that is correct. You also practically parrot the ID mantra of "teach the controversy" when, within the scientific community, no such controversy exists.

Happy Sabbath to you, just the same.

-ArtificialGrape
I'm a staunch supporter of individual rights and balance. I just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes. I'm not for any specific religion (atheism included), but I am for people's right to choose their religion and the free exercise thereof.

I believe that man, even historians can screw up a story faster than anyone would normally think possible. People actually believed Pres. Bush steered Katrina into N.O. and Dick Cheney blew up the dikes. That was just 8 years ago. I think it's possible that one or more of the deities described by man could have existed, and may still. Of course, there are enough problems with any religious text I've read or studied about to discount mans ability to describe a deity accurately. It doesn't matter very much, if any of them exist they haven't bothered to introduce themselves to me. Until they do, I spend more time working on current profound decisions on what to believe. I believe I'll cook the burgers on the grill tonight, it's in the mid 60's, that's plenty warm enough.

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Old 02-16-2013, 16:01   #683
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That, sir, is complete and utter B.S. You were sure "atheism is a religion" before you even started posting in this forum.

So don't act like you've been all reasonable about it and just getting more and more sure the more you hang around here - because people remember things, you know? Before you started http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322 , you posted in here very little, if at all, and you certainly appear to be sure in that thread.
I can assure you, the longer I hang out here, the more sure I am of it. How could I not be? There are so many repeated examples?

Before I started posting here, it was a casual opinion, a lot of you have helped firm that up for me over the years.

Evangelical atheism exists. I didn't create it, it predates me even being a member on GT. I met a few back in high school.
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Old 02-16-2013, 16:10   #684
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CD, are there atheists that have no religion?
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Old 02-16-2013, 16:27   #685
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CD, are there atheists that have no religion?
Depends. Self described, or by definition?

I think the "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of belief is a suitable standard. But there are exceptions to just about every rule. Like all religious beliefs, there are casual believers and devout disciples.

But that's just my opinion. From my perspective, it makes sense.
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Old 02-16-2013, 16:59   #686
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Evangelical atheism exists. I didn't create it, it predates me even being a member on GT. I met a few back in high school.
Which is true. Too often "atheist" implies "anti-theist." I want no part of that so don't claim to be atheist, while at the same time realizing that when someone talks about atheists, they are including me.
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:15   #687
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Which is true. Too often "atheist" implies "anti-theist." I want no part of that so don't claim to be atheist, while at the same time realizing that when someone talks about atheists, they are including me.
Well, we are all unique individuals, just like everyone else.

There are most often exceptions to just about every label given to people. I've not met the person that agrees with me on everything, I doubt I ever will. That's cool though.
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:39   #688
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I'm a staunch supporter of individual rights and balance. I just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes.
What evidence supports the intelligent design assertion?
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:47   #689
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Depends. Self described, or by definition?
...
Since as far as I know all of us atheists in GTRI do self describe as not having a religion, that leaves by definition, in your opinion.

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...
I think the "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of belief is a suitable standard.
...
Could you clarify this a little? Belief that there is no god? Suitable standard for being atheist? religious? both?

Would you agree that someone who lacks belief in any god is not religious?

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...
But there are exceptions to just about every rule. Like all religious beliefs, there are casual believers and devout disciples.

But that's just my opinion. From my perspective, it makes sense.
Are there Christians that are not religious, in your opinion, by definition?
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:52   #690
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What evidence supports the intelligent design assertion?
Not much, just conjecture. Which is pretty much the same as abiogenesis, since it has not yet been observed, even though some have carefully tried to create conditions that is should be possible in.

Neither is proven. Pretty sure, for the first living cell in the universe, it had to be one way or the other.

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Old 02-16-2013, 17:56   #691
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Since as far as I know all of us atheists in GTRI do self describe as not having a religion, that leaves by definition, in your opinion.



Could you clarify this a little? Belief that there is no god? Suitable standard for being atheist? religious? both?

Would you agree that someone who lacks belief in any god is not religious?



Are there Christians that are not religious, in your opinion, by definition?


I wasn't too clear with my first question. Atheists: self described or by definition. That may change some of your answers. The atheists by definition, are religious, IMHO.

Maybe not some of the ones that really don't have a belief beyond a reasonable doubt that no deity has existed.

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Old 02-16-2013, 18:05   #692
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Looks like we are heading back off course. Here, let me help.


Hell yeah evolution is possible!! Prove it's not if you can, I dare ya.
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Old 02-16-2013, 18:24   #693
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I wasn't too clear with my first question. Atheists: self described or by definition. That may change some of your answers. The atheists by definition, are religious, IMHO.

Maybe not some of the ones that really don't have a belief beyond a reasonable doubt that no deity has existed.
I thought I might be able to show you an inconsistency in your thought process if you thought there are atheists that are not religious, but no Christians (or any actual religion) who are not religious.
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Old 02-16-2013, 20:42   #694
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Not much, just conjecture. Which is pretty much the same as abiogenesis, since it has not yet been observed, even though some have carefully tried to create conditions that is should be possible in.

Neither is proven. Pretty sure, for the first living cell in the universe, it had to be one way or the other.
Are you postulating intelligent design engineered by a being devoid of living cells? Because any creator that possessed any living cells would only be making MORE living cells as opposed to making the FIRST living cell.

Unless you are postulating the existence of an intelligent designer that is devoid of living cells you are not discussing ORIGINAL life.

If you have thought it through to the point of concluding that the intelligent designer was devoid of living cells than I submit that at the point that you have reached such a conclusion about the nature of the intelligent designer that you will have ceased being agnostic.
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Old 02-16-2013, 23:31   #695
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I can assure you, the longer I hang out here, the more sure I am of it. How could I not be? There are so many repeated examples?
Please name them. I'd like to see who you're going to claim is all religious about it. I'd also be interested to see how many of them have flat out told you they don't hold it as a matter of faith.

Quote:
Before I started posting here, it was a casual opinion, a lot of you have helped firm that up for me over the years.

Evangelical atheism exists. I didn't create it, it predates me even being a member on GT. I met a few back in high school.
Anyone can go and read the thread I linked to and see otherwise. You were *vehement* even then - you did not argue it as a casual position (and you were also misrepresenting other people's positions, even then).

Nobody buys it, Doc. You can claim you're "more" now than then, and maybe that's true - but if it is, it's something like the difference between 99.9999998% and 99.9999999% - in other words, functionally a difference in which 'more sure' is basically meaningless, you were *never not sure in the first place* - which is why it's B.S. You have not and never have exhibited anything but surety, to the point where you sometimes appear to exhibit cognitive dissonance on the matter. Acting as though you were near the edge and now you're all certain is a load of hooey.

Seriously, go back, read that thread, look at what you wrote, and be honest with yourself. I don't even care if you don't come back and admit it - but if you're honest with yourself you'll admit, at least to yourself, that you were not arguing as though it were a casual position - you were arguing with certainty.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:04   #696
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I thought I might be able to show you an inconsistency in your thought process if you thought there are atheists that are not religious, but no Christians (or any actual religion) who are not religious.
There are inconsistencies in all of our thought processes. We are human, and will favor certain things.

That's pretty consistent with me, I'd guess just about everyone that asserts that they are a Christian (honestly), is religious.

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Old 02-17-2013, 04:15   #697
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Please name them. I'd like to see who you're going to claim is all religious about it. I'd also be interested to see how many of them have flat out told you they don't hold it as a matter of faith.

...
...
...
That probably would not be helpful, and would be way off topic for the thread. Do you really want to go over that whole discussion again.

First, I honestly never thought that thread would last near that long, and I had only posted in GTRI a few times in several years. IIRC, the question was asked after some fellow brought his evangelical atheist views up in GTPI in a less than polite way.

Prior to that, it wasn't something I'd given much thought. I've had time and opportunity to discuss the matter at great length now, and I am easily more convinced atheism is a religion now than I was prior to that thread. I do understand that might be discomforting to some, although why is still a little cloudy.

But you also think evolution is possible? Right? So we are in agreement .

/thread
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:51   #698
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Not much, just conjecture.
I asked what evidence there was for intelligent design, not "what conjecture." You said "I just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes." There is evidence suggesting possible ways abiogenesis might have happened. What evidence suggests possible ways intelligent design might have been the cause of abiogenesis?

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Which is pretty much the same as abiogenesis, since it has not yet been observed, even though some have carefully tried to create conditions that is should be possible in.
No, it isn't "pretty much the same as abiogenesis." There is evidence supporting the possibility of abiogenesis, although there is nothing conclusive yet. What evidence is there supporting intelligent design? There must be SOME, since you "just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes." What evidence leads you to the conclusion those two possibilities are roughly equivalent?

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Neither is proven. Pretty sure, for the first living cell in the universe, it had to be one way or the other.
As I pointed out on a different subject, that there are two possibilities doesn't make the possibilities equivalent, particularly when there is some small amount of evidence for one, and none at all for the other.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:53   #699
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Looks like we are heading back off course. Here, let me help.


Hell yeah evolution is possible!! Prove it's not if you can, I dare ya.
Why quibble? Evolution is more than possible; it is a well-supported fact.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:56   #700
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That probably would not be helpful, and would be way off topic for the thread. Do you really want to go over that whole discussion again.

First, I honestly never thought that thread would last near that long, and I had only posted in GTRI a few times in several years. IIRC, the question was asked after some fellow brought his evangelical atheist views up in GTPI in a less than polite way.

Prior to that, it wasn't something I'd given much thought. I've had time and opportunity to discuss the matter at great length now, and I am easily more convinced atheism is a religion now than I was prior to that thread. I do understand that might be discomforting to some, although why is still a little cloudy.

But you also think evolution is possible? Right? So we are in agreement .

/thread
Given that your premise is "atheism is a religion because it's a belief system held to with ardor and faith," and that your belief system of "I don't know what I believe" is held to with ardor and faith, do you concede that makes agnosticism a religion?
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42