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Old 02-16-2013, 14:10   #681
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Back to the topic, if someone had asked me if I had stopped beating my wife yet, and demanded a yes or no answer, I simply would not comply with their demand and answer the question honestly, that I never started beating her. Any man (including me) that knew her and thought beating Mrs. Cavalry Doc was a good option, is a guy with no interest in self preservation.

Now around here, you are chastised for avoiding the question for not slamming your foot into the bear trap, which is cute and all, but I'd rather be honest in my answer.
As I pointed out, "have you stopped beating your wife?" has the unproven assertion that you, at some point in time, beat your wife, and is clearly a no-win situation for somebody that has never beat their wife.

Is there any specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that you currently accept is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god? This question has no such beating-your-wife "trap". For all non-theists the answer is "no". It's not complicated, and it is not asserting that no god exists (or existed).

Your considering this a bear trap and refusing to answer is probably the source of frustration for those that may be frustrated. As for me, it doesn't cause me any frustration, because your answer is perfectly clear.

There is no specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that Cavalry Doc currently accepts is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god. As said before, you can easily prove this wrong by naming a god that you accept as a true god.

I'm not spinning, twisting or putting words in your mouth, rather summarizing what you have said time and again in this forum.

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A week ago, several of the same guys insinuating that I am really an atheist were claiming that I was a theist in disguise. Also humorous.
While I do not consider you a theist in disguise, I can understand their confusion. I have never encountered a non-theist that was such a staunch supporter of Intelligent Design, while at the same time cannot provide a single example of a supernatural claim that religion has made that is correct. You also practically parrot the ID mantra of "teach the controversy" when, within the scientific community, no such controversy exists.

Happy Sabbath to you, just the same.

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 02-16-2013, 16:53   #682
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
As I pointed out, "have you stopped beating your wife?" has the unproven assertion that you, at some point in time, beat your wife, and is clearly a no-win situation for somebody that has never beat their wife.

Is there any specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that you currently accept is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god? This question has no such beating-your-wife "trap". For all non-theists the answer is "no". It's not complicated, and it is not asserting that no god exists (or existed).

Your considering this a bear trap and refusing to answer is probably the source of frustration for those that may be frustrated. As for me, it doesn't cause me any frustration, because your answer is perfectly clear.

There is no specific god that has been asserted (Christian God, YHWH, Zeus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Ra, Ahura Mazda, ...) that Cavalry Doc currently accepts is/was a true/divine/supreme/name-your-term god. As said before, you can easily prove this wrong by naming a god that you accept as a true god.

I'm not spinning, twisting or putting words in your mouth, rather summarizing what you have said time and again in this forum.



While I do not consider you a theist in disguise, I can understand their confusion. I have never encountered a non-theist that was such a staunch supporter of Intelligent Design, while at the same time cannot provide a single example of a supernatural claim that religion has made that is correct. You also practically parrot the ID mantra of "teach the controversy" when, within the scientific community, no such controversy exists.

Happy Sabbath to you, just the same.

-ArtificialGrape
I'm a staunch supporter of individual rights and balance. I just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes. I'm not for any specific religion (atheism included), but I am for people's right to choose their religion and the free exercise thereof.

I believe that man, even historians can screw up a story faster than anyone would normally think possible. People actually believed Pres. Bush steered Katrina into N.O. and Dick Cheney blew up the dikes. That was just 8 years ago. I think it's possible that one or more of the deities described by man could have existed, and may still. Of course, there are enough problems with any religious text I've read or studied about to discount mans ability to describe a deity accurately. It doesn't matter very much, if any of them exist they haven't bothered to introduce themselves to me. Until they do, I spend more time working on current profound decisions on what to believe. I believe I'll cook the burgers on the grill tonight, it's in the mid 60's, that's plenty warm enough.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-16-2013 at 16:54..
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:01   #683
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That, sir, is complete and utter B.S. You were sure "atheism is a religion" before you even started posting in this forum.

So don't act like you've been all reasonable about it and just getting more and more sure the more you hang around here - because people remember things, you know? Before you started http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322 , you posted in here very little, if at all, and you certainly appear to be sure in that thread.
I can assure you, the longer I hang out here, the more sure I am of it. How could I not be? There are so many repeated examples?

Before I started posting here, it was a casual opinion, a lot of you have helped firm that up for me over the years.

Evangelical atheism exists. I didn't create it, it predates me even being a member on GT. I met a few back in high school.
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:10   #684
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CD, are there atheists that have no religion?
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:27   #685
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CD, are there atheists that have no religion?
Depends. Self described, or by definition?

I think the "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of belief is a suitable standard. But there are exceptions to just about every rule. Like all religious beliefs, there are casual believers and devout disciples.

But that's just my opinion. From my perspective, it makes sense.
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:59   #686
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Evangelical atheism exists. I didn't create it, it predates me even being a member on GT. I met a few back in high school.
Which is true. Too often "atheist" implies "anti-theist." I want no part of that so don't claim to be atheist, while at the same time realizing that when someone talks about atheists, they are including me.
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Old 02-16-2013, 18:15   #687
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Which is true. Too often "atheist" implies "anti-theist." I want no part of that so don't claim to be atheist, while at the same time realizing that when someone talks about atheists, they are including me.
Well, we are all unique individuals, just like everyone else.

There are most often exceptions to just about every label given to people. I've not met the person that agrees with me on everything, I doubt I ever will. That's cool though.
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Old 02-16-2013, 18:39   #688
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I'm a staunch supporter of individual rights and balance. I just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes.
What evidence supports the intelligent design assertion?
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Old 02-16-2013, 18:47   #689
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Depends. Self described, or by definition?
...
Since as far as I know all of us atheists in GTRI do self describe as not having a religion, that leaves by definition, in your opinion.

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...
I think the "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of belief is a suitable standard.
...
Could you clarify this a little? Belief that there is no god? Suitable standard for being atheist? religious? both?

Would you agree that someone who lacks belief in any god is not religious?

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...
But there are exceptions to just about every rule. Like all religious beliefs, there are casual believers and devout disciples.

But that's just my opinion. From my perspective, it makes sense.
Are there Christians that are not religious, in your opinion, by definition?
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Old 02-16-2013, 18:52   #690
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What evidence supports the intelligent design assertion?
Not much, just conjecture. Which is pretty much the same as abiogenesis, since it has not yet been observed, even though some have carefully tried to create conditions that is should be possible in.

Neither is proven. Pretty sure, for the first living cell in the universe, it had to be one way or the other.

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Old 02-16-2013, 18:56   #691
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Since as far as I know all of us atheists in GTRI do self describe as not having a religion, that leaves by definition, in your opinion.



Could you clarify this a little? Belief that there is no god? Suitable standard for being atheist? religious? both?

Would you agree that someone who lacks belief in any god is not religious?



Are there Christians that are not religious, in your opinion, by definition?


I wasn't too clear with my first question. Atheists: self described or by definition. That may change some of your answers. The atheists by definition, are religious, IMHO.

Maybe not some of the ones that really don't have a belief beyond a reasonable doubt that no deity has existed.

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Old 02-16-2013, 19:05   #692
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Looks like we are heading back off course. Here, let me help.


Hell yeah evolution is possible!! Prove it's not if you can, I dare ya.
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Old 02-16-2013, 19:24   #693
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I wasn't too clear with my first question. Atheists: self described or by definition. That may change some of your answers. The atheists by definition, are religious, IMHO.

Maybe not some of the ones that really don't have a belief beyond a reasonable doubt that no deity has existed.
I thought I might be able to show you an inconsistency in your thought process if you thought there are atheists that are not religious, but no Christians (or any actual religion) who are not religious.
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Old 02-16-2013, 21:42   #694
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Not much, just conjecture. Which is pretty much the same as abiogenesis, since it has not yet been observed, even though some have carefully tried to create conditions that is should be possible in.

Neither is proven. Pretty sure, for the first living cell in the universe, it had to be one way or the other.
Are you postulating intelligent design engineered by a being devoid of living cells? Because any creator that possessed any living cells would only be making MORE living cells as opposed to making the FIRST living cell.

Unless you are postulating the existence of an intelligent designer that is devoid of living cells you are not discussing ORIGINAL life.

If you have thought it through to the point of concluding that the intelligent designer was devoid of living cells than I submit that at the point that you have reached such a conclusion about the nature of the intelligent designer that you will have ceased being agnostic.
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Old 02-17-2013, 00:31   #695
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I can assure you, the longer I hang out here, the more sure I am of it. How could I not be? There are so many repeated examples?
Please name them. I'd like to see who you're going to claim is all religious about it. I'd also be interested to see how many of them have flat out told you they don't hold it as a matter of faith.

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Before I started posting here, it was a casual opinion, a lot of you have helped firm that up for me over the years.

Evangelical atheism exists. I didn't create it, it predates me even being a member on GT. I met a few back in high school.
Anyone can go and read the thread I linked to and see otherwise. You were *vehement* even then - you did not argue it as a casual position (and you were also misrepresenting other people's positions, even then).

Nobody buys it, Doc. You can claim you're "more" now than then, and maybe that's true - but if it is, it's something like the difference between 99.9999998% and 99.9999999% - in other words, functionally a difference in which 'more sure' is basically meaningless, you were *never not sure in the first place* - which is why it's B.S. You have not and never have exhibited anything but surety, to the point where you sometimes appear to exhibit cognitive dissonance on the matter. Acting as though you were near the edge and now you're all certain is a load of hooey.

Seriously, go back, read that thread, look at what you wrote, and be honest with yourself. I don't even care if you don't come back and admit it - but if you're honest with yourself you'll admit, at least to yourself, that you were not arguing as though it were a casual position - you were arguing with certainty.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:04   #696
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I thought I might be able to show you an inconsistency in your thought process if you thought there are atheists that are not religious, but no Christians (or any actual religion) who are not religious.
There are inconsistencies in all of our thought processes. We are human, and will favor certain things.

That's pretty consistent with me, I'd guess just about everyone that asserts that they are a Christian (honestly), is religious.

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Old 02-17-2013, 05:15   #697
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Please name them. I'd like to see who you're going to claim is all religious about it. I'd also be interested to see how many of them have flat out told you they don't hold it as a matter of faith.

...
...
...
That probably would not be helpful, and would be way off topic for the thread. Do you really want to go over that whole discussion again.

First, I honestly never thought that thread would last near that long, and I had only posted in GTRI a few times in several years. IIRC, the question was asked after some fellow brought his evangelical atheist views up in GTPI in a less than polite way.

Prior to that, it wasn't something I'd given much thought. I've had time and opportunity to discuss the matter at great length now, and I am easily more convinced atheism is a religion now than I was prior to that thread. I do understand that might be discomforting to some, although why is still a little cloudy.

But you also think evolution is possible? Right? So we are in agreement .

/thread
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:51   #698
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Not much, just conjecture.
I asked what evidence there was for intelligent design, not "what conjecture." You said "I just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes." There is evidence suggesting possible ways abiogenesis might have happened. What evidence suggests possible ways intelligent design might have been the cause of abiogenesis?

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Which is pretty much the same as abiogenesis, since it has not yet been observed, even though some have carefully tried to create conditions that is should be possible in.
No, it isn't "pretty much the same as abiogenesis." There is evidence supporting the possibility of abiogenesis, although there is nothing conclusive yet. What evidence is there supporting intelligent design? There must be SOME, since you "just consider ID about as possible as abiogenesis through natural processes." What evidence leads you to the conclusion those two possibilities are roughly equivalent?

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Neither is proven. Pretty sure, for the first living cell in the universe, it had to be one way or the other.
As I pointed out on a different subject, that there are two possibilities doesn't make the possibilities equivalent, particularly when there is some small amount of evidence for one, and none at all for the other.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:53   #699
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Looks like we are heading back off course. Here, let me help.


Hell yeah evolution is possible!! Prove it's not if you can, I dare ya.
Why quibble? Evolution is more than possible; it is a well-supported fact.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:56   #700
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That probably would not be helpful, and would be way off topic for the thread. Do you really want to go over that whole discussion again.

First, I honestly never thought that thread would last near that long, and I had only posted in GTRI a few times in several years. IIRC, the question was asked after some fellow brought his evangelical atheist views up in GTPI in a less than polite way.

Prior to that, it wasn't something I'd given much thought. I've had time and opportunity to discuss the matter at great length now, and I am easily more convinced atheism is a religion now than I was prior to that thread. I do understand that might be discomforting to some, although why is still a little cloudy.

But you also think evolution is possible? Right? So we are in agreement .

/thread
Given that your premise is "atheism is a religion because it's a belief system held to with ardor and faith," and that your belief system of "I don't know what I believe" is held to with ardor and faith, do you concede that makes agnosticism a religion?
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