Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-18-2013, 11:49   #21
Slug71
Senior Member
 
Slug71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oregon - U.S.A
Posts: 4,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
Are you sure about that? John Adams was a founder, and I suspect he knew exactly what he and the others had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Either way, religion control is bad. Especially when you are going for votes. You can't shove christianity down people's throats. The politicians need to keep religion out of politics.
__________________
GSSF Member
Bull Dawgs Club #571
Rimfire Club #571
Slug71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 12:03   #22
IvanVic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,529
Rand has great ideas, unfortunately I doubt he'd be able to keep his hands off the social issues because of his constituency. I'd like to see most of his ideas embraced by someone who is actually electable.
IvanVic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 12:20   #23
TX OMFS
Lifetime Membership
Right wing nut
 
TX OMFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnemyOfTheState View Post
Its not government's job to mold society and make you a better person no more than it is to rob you to pay a welfare leech.
Agreed. Government cannot make anyone a different or better person.

Social issues are still important, though. Goverment can't change your mind or your behavior but it can draw lines in the sand.

A skilled politician can focus on conservative economic principles while also acknowledging the importance of social issues.

Those idiots going on about rape in the last election where not skilled politicians. Hell, they weren't even smart people. They were just morons.
__________________
“Men do not differ much about what things they call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.” - G. K. Chesterton
TX OMFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 12:46   #24
czsmithGT
Senior Member
 
czsmithGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
Are you sure about that? John Adams was a founder, and I suspect he knew exactly what he and the others had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

"I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of the other sect, who believe or pretend to believe that all is ordered by chance, I should believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization." - John Adams in his letter to François Adriaan van der Kemp (16 February 1809).
czsmithGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 13:18   #25
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 37,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
Are you sure about that? John Adams was a founder, and I suspect he knew exactly what he and the others had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
I think you misunderstand that statement. John Adams did not advocate religious government or involving religion in government - neither did the churches of the time, in fact. John Adams, best I can tell, is saying simply that you have to have a moral population to survive with the amount of freedom they had back then.

The population we have now, unfortunately, is proving him right (hence the constant battle to take away freedom in order to control the immoral elements of society).

The quote is always repeated out of context. Here is the context:

Quote:
Gentleman,
While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays I have received from Major-General Hull and Brigadier, General Walker your unanimous address from Lexington, animated with a martial spirit, and expressed with a military dignity becoming your character and the memorable plains on which it was adopted. in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, • would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

An address from the officers commanding two thousand eight hundred men, consisting of such substantial citizens as are able and willing at their own expense completely to arm and clothe themselves in handsome uniforms, does honor to that division of the militia which has done so much honor to its country. Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken and so solemnly repeated on that venerable spot, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 02-18-2013 at 13:22..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 13:36   #26
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,592
I didn't misunderstand anything. It's not complicated. As our society has moved in a more secular progressive direction, there seems to be an acceptance, or even glorification, of moral decline. I don't think that you have to look very hard to see that truism. Don't misundertand my position, I'm not advocating religiosity in government. I'm just commenting on what I see. Seems that the forced removal of religion from our society has proven Adams to have been very astute.

Last edited by Kablam; 02-18-2013 at 13:37..
Kablam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 16:03   #27
railfancwb
Senior Member
 
railfancwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Shelbyville, Tennessee TN
Posts: 4,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by czsmithGT View Post
He was born in Canada. His father Cuban, his mother American, so he is a natural born US citizen.
Must be based on the Kenyan precedent.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"Never give to your friend any power that your enemy may some day inherit." -- Paul Weyrich
railfancwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 16:46   #28
czsmithGT
Senior Member
 
czsmithGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by railfancwb View Post
Must be based on the Kenyan precedent.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
No it's based on US law.
czsmithGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 20:01   #29
EOS
Headbanger
 
EOS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 1,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
Are you sure about that? John Adams was a founder, and I suspect he knew exactly what he and the others had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
I think what he meant is that liberty and freedom is reserved for responsible and ethical people as the absence of government in certain areas requires a moral and ethical populace. With liberty comes responsibility, there is no incentive to live or act ethically when the government tells you what your morals and values are before you have a chance to see for yourself, just as there is no incentive to earn money through labor when the government provides it for you. If the State gives you something, it deincentivizes you from obtaining or realising it yourself.


We know the founders advocated a government with no religous interference hence the seperation of church and state, but when you understand why they did it all makes sense.

Our founders observed history and saw what happened when the
church controlled the state, look at the Middle Ages, anyone who was not a believer in Christianity or Islam was persecuted. Some had to worship in complete secrecy to avoid death. They also knew why their ancestors came to North America, it was to persue religous freedom. They tried to make sure history wasn't repeated.
__________________
Die When You Can Do No More Damage


Let Freedom Ring With A Shotgun Blast

Last edited by EOS; 02-18-2013 at 22:24..
EOS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 20:30   #30
Dawolf
Senior Member
 
Dawolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug71 View Post
Either way, religion control is bad. Especially when you are going for votes. You can't shove christianity down people's throats. The politicians need to keep religion out of politics.
I think Regan did it well. He professed beliefs, but did not pontificate them. Limited government is what the founders wanted, all free to believe as they wish. The opposite of the church of England. So yes, religion at a personal level, now a campaign issue.
Dawolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 21:47   #31
Slug71
Senior Member
 
Slug71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oregon - U.S.A
Posts: 4,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawolf View Post
I think Regan did it well. He professed beliefs, but did not pontificate them. Limited government is what the founders wanted, all free to believe as they wish. The opposite of the church of England. So yes, religion at a personal level, now a campaign issue.
Agreed.
__________________
GSSF Member
Bull Dawgs Club #571
Rimfire Club #571
Slug71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 15:42   #32
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnemyOfTheState View Post
I think what he meant is that liberty and freedom is reserved for responsible and ethical people as the absence of government in certain areas requires a moral and ethical populace. With liberty comes responsibility, there is no incentive to live or act ethically when the government tells you what your morals and values are before you have a chance to see for yourself, just as there is no incentive to earn money through labor when the government provides it for you. If the State gives you something, it deincentivizes you from obtaining or realising it yourself.


We know the founders advocated a government with no religous interference hence the seperation of church and state, but when you understand why they did it all makes sense.

Our founders observed history and saw what happened when the
church controlled the state, look at the Middle Ages, anyone who was not a believer in Christianity or Islam was persecuted. Some had to worship in complete secrecy to avoid death. They also knew why their ancestors came to North America, it was to persue religous freedom. They tried to make sure history wasn't repeated.
We KNOW what he meant. Read these words and others from him. Kind of like the 2nd ammendment. Read the words...no interpretation necessary. Not complicated at all. Our form of government was intended by the founders to be for a moral and RELIGIOUS people. He, and others, said that it would not work otherwise. A secular society was not intended for this form of government. That's different than the government prescribing a particular faith, and it is also different from a government and society removed from all religious ideals. Methinks they were right.
Kablam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2013, 13:05   #33
Slug71
Senior Member
 
Slug71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oregon - U.S.A
Posts: 4,474
Rand on CNN last night(2/19/13).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=yzutZv3nftA
__________________
GSSF Member
Bull Dawgs Club #571
Rimfire Club #571
Slug71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 13:59   #34
Slug71
Senior Member
 
Slug71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oregon - U.S.A
Posts: 4,474
Rand Paul on Fox last night.

$5 million on freakin gold fish democracy!? And jerky!

__________________
GSSF Member
Bull Dawgs Club #571
Rimfire Club #571

Last edited by Slug71; 02-22-2013 at 14:35..
Slug71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 18:55   #35
Slug71
Senior Member
 
Slug71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oregon - U.S.A
Posts: 4,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug71 View Post
Rand Paul on Fox last night.

$5 million on freakin gold fish democracy!? And jerky!

Sen. Paul appears on Fox's On the Record with Greta Van Susteren- 2/21/13 - YouTube

Introduced a bill with his recommendations.

http://paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=716
__________________
GSSF Member
Bull Dawgs Club #571
Rimfire Club #571

Last edited by Slug71; 02-22-2013 at 19:11..
Slug71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 12:28   #36
Slug71
Senior Member
 
Slug71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oregon - U.S.A
Posts: 4,474
__________________
GSSF Member
Bull Dawgs Club #571
Rimfire Club #571
Slug71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 14:56   #37
hogfish
Señor Member
 
hogfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 4,662
Oh, boy. He admitted to not thinking we need to be involved in every war around the world. I don't see how he has a chance.
__________________
Opinions are like noses...everybody's got one.

"Almost no matter the question, capitalism and freedom are the answers, while government and religion are not." Syclone538

Last edited by hogfish; 02-26-2013 at 14:56..
hogfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 15:24   #38
Rockjockey
Recalcitrant
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chunkarock, Texas
Posts: 218
Not going to have to worry about all of this.
http://nation.foxnews.com/22nd-amend...al-term-limits
Rockjockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 15:47   #39
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug71 View Post
Either way, religion control is bad. Especially when you are going for votes. You can't shove christianity down people's throats. The politicians need to keep religion out of politics.
I can agree to keep religion out of politics. One problem I have though is that the secular crowd has used politics to force religion out of society instead of politics hence not heeding Adams' warning. And I now think we're seeing the results.

Last edited by Kablam; 02-26-2013 at 15:49..
Kablam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 19:45   #40
aspartz
Senior Member
 
aspartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sandstone, MN 55072
Posts: 6,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
One problem I have though is that the secular crowd has used politics to force religion out of society instead of politics
Where have the secular folks forced religion out of society? Out of the public (government) square yes, but private society? No!

ARS
__________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Unknown
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force" - George Washington
aspartz is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:55.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 795
183 Members
612 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31