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Old 03-06-2013, 19:02   #41
CAcop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambo View Post
I expect the authorities to use the legal means they have at their disposal such as helicopters, police cars, rifles, spike strips, etc. Just like the authorities expect me to use the legal means to defend myself using legal weapons. You could make all kinds of arguments for your scenario - an airstrike, a low yield tactical nuke, a fuel-air explosive, an A-10 loaded to the gills.
Have you ever seen spike strips in action? Have you ever fired on a moving vehicle?

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Old 03-06-2013, 19:27   #42
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Have you ever seen spike strips in action? Have you ever fired on a moving vehicle?

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Old 03-06-2013, 20:57   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Let's play a game of what if...

What if a large vehicle such as a truck were laded with explosives and moving down the road to a large gathering of people, say the Super Bowl, and you had the chance to take it out with say a Hellfire from a drone to the cab.

Would you authorize that if you were president?
Well the only people that seem to live with the delusion that such things are detectable are cops and intelligence personnel. The only way a cop is going to know about it is if the darn thing is already blown up.
Let's just take a trip down memory lane of some of the great intelligence coups of the last 100 years-

Dec 1941- US Navy totally surprised by an attack on a Naval base
Gulf of Tonkin- Again US Navy shocked to be attacked
1979 Iranian embassy taken over and Shah deposed. US is actively training Iranian military personnel on the day of the
takeover
1982 Beirut Lebanon-Mad Islamakazee bombs a barracks full of Marines.
1989 Berlin Wall falls-US Intelligence Agencies totally flummoxed
1992 Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, US totally surprised. Kuwaiti government promises it will change over to a Democratic country if we just please get those darn Iraqis out of Kuwait
2001 A bunch of Islamakazees take over several airlines, because of our lax immigration policies none of our bloated federal bureaucracies are aware that we have a gozillian illegals in the country that hate us and are about to crash airliners into building to prove it. Everyone is astonished.
Hell I could write a book, and I would not even skim the surface of the incompetence of the government, yet there are imbeciles here in this country that giving these buffoon James Bond wannabees a license to kill is a good idea.
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Old 03-06-2013, 21:14   #44
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Have you ever seen spike strips in action? Have you ever fired on a moving vehicle?

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So I am giving your scenario right back to you, respectfully. You are on patrol and it comes over your radio that you and 3 other officers need to stop an 18 wheeler with explosives. What do you do? Hellfire missiles are not an option.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:15   #45
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We'll see if anything happens when a drone collides with an airliner full of people over the US. Was it an accident?
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:53   #46
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Originally Posted by Cambo View Post
So I am giving your scenario right back to you, respectfully. You are on patrol and it comes over your radio that you and 3 other officers need to stop an 18 wheeler with explosives. What do you do? Hellfire missiles are not an option.
We shoot rifles at the cab and we have a 50/50 chance of it continuing. Same with spike strips even if we can get them there in time. Of course this all assumes we know for sure what their route is. And of course being able to get in front of it. Or being able to find it at ground level.

Or for big events you could have a drone on standby for a fraction of the cost of a manned aircraft. But since you are such a fan of a big spending government I guess you are okay with more money being spent.

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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:54   #47
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Originally Posted by Annoyinglylongname View Post
Well the only people that seem to live with the delusion that such things are detectable are cops and intelligence personnel. The only way a cop is going to know about it is if the darn thing is already blown up.
Let's just take a trip down memory lane of some of the great intelligence coups of the last 100 years-

Dec 1941- US Navy totally surprised by an attack on a Naval base
Gulf of Tonkin- Again US Navy shocked to be attacked
1979 Iranian embassy taken over and Shah deposed. US is actively training Iranian military personnel on the day of the
takeover
1982 Beirut Lebanon-Mad Islamakazee bombs a barracks full of Marines.
1989 Berlin Wall falls-US Intelligence Agencies totally flummoxed
1992 Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, US totally surprised. Kuwaiti government promises it will change over to a Democratic country if we just please get those darn Iraqis out of Kuwait
2001 A bunch of Islamakazees take over several airlines, because of our lax immigration policies none of our bloated federal bureaucracies are aware that we have a gozillian illegals in the country that hate us and are about to crash airliners into building to prove it. Everyone is astonished.
Hell I could write a book, and I would not even skim the surface of the incompetence of the government, yet there are imbeciles here in this country that giving these buffoon James Bond wannabees a license to kill is a good idea.
I am talking about a case where we have intel giving us a target before it happens. Not likely but it is in the realm of reality. Would you prefer the government not to be prepared for such events?

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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:06   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
I am talking about a case where we have intel giving us a target before it happens. Not likely but it is in the realm of reality. Would you prefer the government not to be prepared for such events?

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I would judge your scenario as a case of national security and defense of the American citizenry where-as a weapon of mass destruction is being employed in an act of terrorism. I would apply this policy to scenarios such as spotting a crazed Tim McVay headed toward the Murrah Federal Building or a Flight 93 headed toward the White House.

Of course, there are layers of defense from local police to the FBI to detect, anticipate, intercept and hopefully prevent such a substantial event. Homeland Security is customizing drones for cellphone reception and weapons identification but loading up a Hellfire and popping it off at an American citizen who otherwise could be detained, questioned, arrested and tried would be un-Constitutional.


The problem is that the current Administration is unwilling to elaborate on expansive, sweeping and over-encompassing statements. They over-reach to the point of alarm and are unwilling to set policy. They are "leading from behind" again.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:10   #49
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Although drones carrying ordinance over US soil disturbs me what has me more concerned is the reports that said drones will have the ability to detect if a citizen is armed and be able to track cellphone transmissions. Yeah this is all for our own good. :mad:

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Old 03-07-2013, 09:07   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Let's play a game of what if...

What if a large vehicle such as a truck were laded with explosives and moving down the road to a large gathering of people, say the Super Bowl, and you had the chance to take it out with say a Hellfire from a drone to the cab.

Would you authorize that if you were president?

Where is Jack Bauer when you need him?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:33   #51
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
We shoot rifles at the cab and we have a 50/50 chance of it continuing. Same with spike strips even if we can get them there in time. Of course this all assumes we know for sure what their route is. And of course being able to get in front of it. Or being able to find it at ground level.

Or for big events you could have a drone on standby for a fraction of the cost of a manned aircraft. But since you are such a fan of a big spending government I guess you are okay with more money being spent.

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If you want to play percentages, my other examples like a low yield nuke or air strike would have an even better chance of stopping the truck.
Do you trust Obama/Holder? Are you really comfortable with this concept? Take off the police hat for a minute, stop imagining what would be most convenient for your profession and think about the real implications here. Should there be any limits when it comes to law enforcement? Warrants? Seizures? Miranda Rights? Should we do away with these things in the name of efficient policing? Should every police department have a helicopter gunship or tank in case of the what ifs? And no, I am not into big government spending. I am really finding it hard to believe that you trust the government so much. Your own state doesn't trust you or any civilians to have basic weapons, why would you trust them?
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:44   #52
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Where is all the hypocrites on the left who opposed Bush now that they have a President walking all over the constitution and taking away our civil rights?
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:00   #53
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Do you trust Obama/Holder?
I think this is the one thing that had me floored and stupefied over people here of all places defending drones (and by extension I suppose, the secret "kill lists"). The same guys that from day one went to work painting people on the right as terrorists. The same guys that armed Mexican drug cartels. The same guys that wouldn't prosecute armed Black Panthers intimidating voters. Etc etc etc...

I think what got to me was that if people here don't oppose THOSE TWO having this kind of power, then they will never have any qualms about anyone having that power.
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:35   #54
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Why continue with the pretense that GT would not be near unanimously on favor of lethal force on American soil if it were a republicans in the 'White House'?

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:14   #55
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Why continue with the pretense that GT would not be near unanimously on favor of lethal force on American soil if it were a republicans in the 'White House'?

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You used to make quite a bit of sense here. You seem, recently, to have descended into some bitter place that you can't see clearly out of. That makes me sad. I do not think that a magority of GTers would be in favor of lethal force on American soil regardless of who was in the White House, including a reanimated Ronald Reagan. Wrong is wrong. I hope you can get some good sleep and start thinking more clearly soon, as I miss reading constructive posts from you. Happy Shooting.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:16   #56
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I am talking about a case where we have intel giving us a target before it happens. Not likely but it is in the realm of reality. Would you prefer the government not to be prepared for such events?

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Our Government is NEVER prepared for such an event, they are too busy getting bribes and worrying about budgets and reelections to be prepared. US Interests overseas are always US CORPORATE interests, which seldom equal the interests of the common American.
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Old 03-08-2013, 20:51   #57
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The problem is, even if you are a screaming progressive and trust obama and Holder completely, what about the next admin?

You aren't just giving this power to these two clowns, you are giving it to all who follow him...whatever their intentions.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:49   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Let's play a game of what if...

What if a large vehicle such as a truck were laded with explosives and moving down the road to a large gathering of people, say the Super Bowl, and you had the chance to take it out with say a Hellfire from a drone to the cab.

Would you authorize that if you were president?
Ok, I'll play... What if a cop were standing with a clear shot at the driver of the same vehicle, that was suspected of holding the explosives (because the odds we'd actually definitively KNOW that are zero) - can the cop shoot the driver? Or is he compelled to try to stop him without resorting to lethal force first?
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:53   #59
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socialism at it's finest
I think you mean fascism. But your point is taken.
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:55   #60
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Quote:
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I am talking about a case where we have intel giving us a target before it happens. Not likely but it is in the realm of reality. Would you prefer the government not to be prepared for such events?

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Yes. I would. Because the minuscule chance that your scenario became reality is far outweighed by the opportunity for the preparedness to be abused.

Trading freedom for security and all that.
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