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Old 04-21-2013, 09:59   #51
K. Foster
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Originally Posted by BleedNOrange View Post
Took a rifle class a few weeks back. If your rifle wont run you get sent home and have to reschedule. approx 1200 rounds in 3 days. 2 got sent home.
I know itís a little off topic but Iím curious as to what class that was. Iíve seen instructors go to great lengths to get peopleís guns running or lend them guns. When I was teaching, Iíve let people use my guns. As a last resort, let them observe and participate as much as possible. Ejecting people from class is ridiculous and should not even be an option!
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:09   #52
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I am not sure why people seem to panic over a non-staked gas key. I have been shooting AR's since the 1980s and not a one had a staked anything. I have never experienced a single problem with a gas key even with my (2) Bushmaster shorties (circa 1999 ) that have more than 8k rounds through each of them. I will admit that I bought a couple nickel boron (staked key) BCG's but I doubt I will ever have to use them. Is a staked key better than and non-staked key?.. sure. Do I worry about it... nah


As far as Colt or Bushy goes.. I would buy which ever is the best price and not worry about it. If it got as clost as $50 more for the Colt, I would probably buy the Colt but I wouldn't for $100 more. I had a Colt Sporter back in the day that was a lemon but honestly, it was probably the butchered up oem low-cap mags. I still have a couple of those mags, I should post a pic just so people can laugh at how horrible mags were back then.
A staked gas key (and castle nut, for that matter) is cheap insurance.

Imagine buying a new car, only to find out the guy that built the engine didn't use a torque wrench on the bolts that hold it together, and they just guessed how tight they needed to be. Maybe they got it right, and maybe the engine will blow the entire top cover off 5 miles past the end of the warranty.

Not staking the key bolts is just lazy. It takes a few moments to do correctly, even with a basic tool (much less done in a jig with a machine designed to do it), and it's a cheap way to ensure that your bolts are much less likely to back out. It doesn't take much for the gas key to start leaking, and render your AR useless.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:25   #53
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I am not sure why people seem to panic over a non-staked gas key. I have been shooting AR's since the 1980s and not a one had a staked anything. I have never experienced a single problem with a gas key even with my (2) Bushmaster shorties (circa 1999 ) that have more than 8k rounds through each of them.
Iíve seen gas key bolts vibrate loose with less than 2,000 rounds. If youíve shot 16,000 though 2 guns, youíve been lucky.

Staking the gas key is not a big deal. Put the BCG in a vise. Hit the sides of the key with a hammer and punch until some metal is pushed up against the bolts. Takes about 10 minutes.
I would not be afraid to buy a rifle with an un-staked key, if it had other features that I wanted. My issue is that itís a simple but necessary step. If companies are not doing that, what else are they not doing.
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Old 04-21-2013, 14:46   #54
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I don't know why people seem to panic when they pay money for half-assed merchandise.

Like someone mentioned if a manufacturer won't stake a gas key it should throw up red flags. What other corners have they cut, what is their true motive (profit?, quality?).

But then again lets just lay them out on a table, nobody could tell the difference anyway.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:12   #55
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I know itís a little off topic but Iím curious as to what class that was. Iíve seen instructors go to great lengths to get peopleís guns running or lend them guns. When I was teaching, Iíve let people use my guns. As a last resort, let them observe and participate as much as possible. Ejecting people from class is ridiculous and should not even be an option!
Not ridiculous at all. Its a course for patrol officers. If a gun wont run it takes away from the rest of the class. If the gunsmith is having to constantly fix it and others are waiting. Loaning a gun isnt an option either. We have to provide our own gun that will be used and it needs to run 100%. The dept. isnt going to give the loaner gun to the officer so its up to him/her to have a fully operational weapon. Watching also does little to help since they will just have to return at a later date to get the proper courses of fire in.
If it was a paid course I would agree with you but in this case its not and the officer only has to reschedule.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:30   #56
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Not ridiculous at all. Its a course for patrol officers. If a gun wont run it takes away from the rest of the class. If the gunsmith is having to constantly fix it and others are waiting. Loaning a gun isnt an option either. We have to provide our own gun that will be used and it needs to run 100%. The dept. isnt going to give the loaner gun to the officer so its up to him/her to have a fully operational weapon. Watching also does little to help since they will just have to return at a later date to get the proper courses of fire in.
If it was a paid course I would agree with you but in this case its not and the officer only has to reschedule.
So the rifle flunks the class because one of the objectives is to test the rifle while training and testing the student simultaneously? If your rifle flunks, you flunk, too? It sounds to me that your department has a very ineffective cost management model for rifle training. It may seem to some beancounter to be more efficient to do it that way, but their are huge secondary expenses to conducting training, and they will be incurring those expenses over and over.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:37   #57
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So the rifle flunks the class because one of the objectives is to test the rifle while training and testing the student simultaneously? If your rifle flunks, you flunk, too? It sounds to me that your department has a very ineffective cost management model for rifle training. It may seem to some beancounter to be more efficient to do it that way, but their are huge secondary expenses to conducting training, and they will be incurring those expenses over and over.
We get paid to take the class just as if we were on duty. They shift days off etc. I see what you are saying but having an officer take the class twice wouldnt seem very cost effective either. Even if the officer passes the class with a loaner gun they would still have to return with their gun.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:06   #58
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So the rifle flunks the class because one of the objectives is to test the rifle while training and testing the student simultaneously? If your rifle flunks, you flunk, too? It sounds to me that your department has a very ineffective cost management model for rifle training. It may seem to some beancounter to be more efficient to do it that way, but their are huge secondary expenses to conducting training, and they will be incurring those expenses over and over.
Slowing down the other shooters so the lame duck can keep up is counter productive and not realistic. The rest end up not getting the training they need. These guys aren't training to see who can knit the cutest baby blanket. In this game if your carbine fails, you fail. Why should training take on another face? It's probably cheaper to conduct quality training than to pay out benefits to widows.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:31   #59
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Slowing down the other shooters so the lame duck can keep up is counter productive and not realistic. The rest end up not getting the training they need. These guys aren't training to see who can knit the cutest baby blanket. In this game if your carbine fails, you fail. Why should training take on another face? It's probably cheaper to conduct quality training than to pay out benefits to widows.
Whoa, dude. That's DYNAMIC.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:36   #60
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We get paid to take the class just as if we were on duty. They shift days off etc. I see what you are saying but having an officer take the class twice wouldnt seem very cost effective either. Even if the officer passes the class with a loaner gun they would still have to return with their gun.
My point was mostly that making officers prove that their rifle is worthy is asinine. It would be much cheaper to simply require that officers use rifles from an approved list. If the qualification is required anually, it would be cheaper in the long run for the department to just supply the rifles. The taxpayers are paying for more training time and training than is actually being utilized.

Training people and equipment provanance are two separate things. Mixing then creates huge inefficiencies. Their are also false assumptions being made with statistics. If a rifle has a bolt failure during a class, the likelyhood of a subsequent bolt failure is no different going forward than it was before the initial failure, but when the guy gets a new bolt, he has to begin the class from the beginning. Also, the fact that a bolt makes it through the class does not indicate that it is less likely to fail in the future. It just means that the bolt did not fail during the class.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:40   #61
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Whoa, dude. That's DYNAMIC.
Lol, is it not true though?

It's annoying when some guy who has tried scraping together some garbage to run reloads through holds everyone up. Breath. Sorry the memory is still fresh
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:42   #62
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Slowing down the other shooters so the lame duck can keep up is counter productive and not realistic. The rest end up not getting the training they need. These guys aren't training to see who can knit the cutest baby blanket. In this game if your carbine fails, you fail. Why should training take on another face? It's probably cheaper to conduct quality training than to pay out benefits to widows.
Keeping a malfunctioning rifle on the line is as stupid as throwing a functioning student off of the line. Training is to develop and ensure the desired behavior of the student. Equipment acqusition and testing is for ensuring the desired function of the equipment. Both have to happen, but doing both with the same process at the same time costs more and is guaranteed to short change one set of objectives.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:47   #63
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Keeping a malfunctioning rifle on the line is as stupid as throwing a functioning student off of the line. Training is to develop and ensure the desired behavior of the student. Equipment acqusition and testing is for ensuring the desired function of the equipment. Both have to happen, but doing both with the same process at the same time costs more and is guaranteed to short change one set of objectives.
Not for the students who have their **** together. The only person who suffers is the person who didn't put in the effort during the preperation period.

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Old 04-22-2013, 13:25   #64
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Not for the students who have their **** together. The only person who suffers is the person who didn't put in the effort during the preperation period.
I guess you missed the part where I described the student as functioning, as meeting the learning objectives as appropriate, when his new Colt takes a dump. One part of an instructor's job is to assess whether each student has a proper foundation for the training which is being offered.

There are a lot of potential clients out there who view themselves as being ready for high speed, low drag training. If someone has documented quality prior rifle or carbine training, they may take an intermediate level course after a brief rifle handling exercise with the rifle they wish to use in a course where they demonstrate that they have a suitable foundation to build on. Everyone else must start with the elemental basics.
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Old 04-22-2013, 13:39   #65
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Not for the students who have their **** together. The only person who suffers is the person who didn't put in the effort during the preperation period.
OK... so the situation you're describing is that the student has a 100% NMC, inoperable weapon?

Is it an easy to diagnose and fix problem with readily available parts on hand?

And there are no floats? At all?

Or he's running the absolute lowest quality ammunition available? That won't cycle anything?

An intermittently malfunctioning weapon in training will give the shooter a headache trying to keep up, and make him very good at immediate action/ reducing malfunctions.

It's also a good reality check for the shooter- don't show up to a gunfight with an NMC weapon or ammunition. Don't show up to training any other way than you would show up to a gunfight.

I would even offer the opportunity to dry fire if the shooter didn't bring "ammunition" with him.

No limpstroking or talk about "body bags" or whatever is needed. Just fix the problem now temporarily and permanently in the future.
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Old 04-22-2013, 13:43   #66
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"It would be much cheaper to simply require that officers use rifles from an approved list."
We do. Every rifle there is on the list.
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:22   #67
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I don't know why people seem to panic when they pay money for half-assed merchandise.
Then why do you own some cheesy AR instead of a top tier like LaRue?
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:22   #68
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I guess you missed the part where I described the student as functioning, as meeting the learning objectives as appropriate, when his new Colt takes a dump. One part of an instructor's job is to assess whether each student has a proper foundation for the training which is being offered.

There are a lot of potential clients out there who view themselves as being ready for high speed, low drag training. If someone has documented quality prior rifle or carbine training, they may take an intermediate level course after a brief rifle handling exercise with the rifle they wish to use in a course where they demonstrate that they have a suitable foundation to build on. Everyone else must start with the elemental basics.
Does it matter if the student is 100% if the weapon isn't functioning?

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OK... so the situation you're describing is that the student has a 100% NMC, inoperable weapon?

Is it an easy to diagnose and fix problem with readily available parts on hand?

And there are no floats? At all?

Or he's running the absolute lowest quality ammunition available? That won't cycle anything?

An intermittently malfunctioning weapon in training will give the shooter a headache trying to keep up, and make him very good at immediate action/ reducing malfunctions.

It's also a good reality check for the shooter- don't show up to a gunfight with an NMC weapon or ammunition. Don't show up to training any other way than you would show up to a gunfight.

I would even offer the opportunity to dry fire if the shooter didn't bring "ammunition" with him.

No limpstroking or talk about "body bags" or whatever is needed. Just fix the problem now temporarily and permanently in the future.
You're correct, it is a great learning experience for the shooter. My concern is the other students.

I've had a carbine go down in training. It was distracting. I always bring a spare firearm but my mind was still on the defective one. Did I absorb all the training the class had to offer? I don't feel I allowed myself to. Not only that but it was an interruption for the other students.

I guess the exception could be the use of a spare weapon.

The event I described was of an individual w/ a Ruger piston gun and reloaded ammunition. The firearm experienced multiple (3) stuck cases and other feeding/extraction related malfunctions. Each instance brought training to a halt. Talk about disruptive environments.
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:25   #69
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Then why do you own some cheesy AR instead of a top tier like LaRue?
Because I love me some Velveeta Mac and Cheese. W/ broccoli of course.

Why do you tell fake stories of combat?
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:25   #70
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Because I love me some Velveeta Mac and Cheese. W/ broccoli of course.

Why do you tell fake stories of combat?


Why do you claim fake combat experience?
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:30   #71
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Why do you claim fake combat experience but never posted any credentials?
Maybe we were wrong, tell us your stories again.
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:40   #72
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Maybe we were wrong, tell us your stories again.
This ain't no lie, back in summer of '73, in the highland of 'Nam, I was with a group of 'Yards stalking a hot shot VC general with accompanied Russian Spetsnaz (who like throwing axes for weapons) bodyguard...
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:47   #73
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Does it matter if the student is 100% if the weapon isn't functioning?



You're correct, it is a great learning experience for the shooter. My concern is the other students........



........ I guess the exception could be the use of a spare weapon.
.
Have we not discussed, at great length, the M4 style rifles that I bought for situations when students needed one? The Colt 6920 and the S&W Sport?
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:50   #74
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Have we not discussed, at great length, the M4 style rifles that I bought for situations when students needed one? The Colt 6920 and the S&W Sport?
The peparameters of the class you questioned requires the operator and tool to function together.

As I mentioned maybe allowing a spare would allow the officer to reenter training at that time instead of at a later date. That still does not vet the duty carbine. So you're still left w/ multiple events being required.

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Old 04-22-2013, 14:52   #75
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Cool story...
I'll bet your story is even cooler. Give us some more details about them villages that you cleared in Afghanistan.
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