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Old 04-20-2013, 16:29   #41
DanMN
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I'm not blaming the gun. It and I were evidently not good together. I've shot the mp 45c through 150 rounds of mixed ammo without a malf. It must be more forgiving is my assumption.


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Old 04-20-2013, 20:35   #42
GicleeOne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
With the G30 and G36, especially, there are a lot of folks complaining about FTE that disappears when they shoot full power ammo. Search around, it's pretty common.

Glock builds the guns for NATO powered loads, not WWB or Federal Champion.

The fact that your gun functions perfectly with full power ammo simply means that a) you need to step up the power level or b) you might get away with a slightly lighter spring.

It's not you, you have been shooting big bore far too long on far too many platforms to have much of a grip problem. If the gun won't function when shot from a solid Weaver stance/grip (right arm pushing out, left hand pulling back and down), it isn't the grip. Your right wrist simply can't break with this grip.

Try the hotter ammo again but try some really wimpy grips: one hand/weak hand, two or three fingers on strong hand only, that type of thing. I'll bet the gun functions perfectly with any half-crappy grip. As long as the ammo is full power.

I don't have a G36 but I want one. I put it off because I was reading about all the problems but the more I read, the more convinced I am that the entire problem is wimpy ammo.

As a reloader, I can make ammo that is hot or mild, doesn't matter, the cost is about the same. I don't enjoy hot loads as much but the whole point of a G36 is concealment, not comfort. If I want comfort in a .45, I'll shoot my Sig P220 or my G21SF.

I think I am about to talk myself into buying a G36. If I can ever find one again.

Richard
Please explain to me how a lighter/wimpy load causes the extractor to lose its grip on the casing, because that's what seems to be happening. The case is only partially extracted from the chamber and left sitting there to block chambering of the next round. It never gets far enough rearward to contact the ejector. I just don't see how a weaker charge would cause that.

My money is on the LCI extractor being the cause as proven by one other example posted in another thread and I'm about to hopefully prove the same thing in my case as I've swapped out my LCI extractor and SLB with the non LCI versions and I'll be heading to the range tomorrow morning to test it out.


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Old 04-20-2013, 20:41   #43
DanMN
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Please post back your range results. I am very curious!


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Old 04-20-2013, 20:45   #44
Glock 23 Nutter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMN View Post
I'm not blaming the gun. It and I were evidently not good together. I've shot the mp 45c through 150 rounds of mixed ammo without a malf. It must be more forgiving is my assumption.


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Hey,

0300, barefoot, things-that-go-bump-in-the-night (when they're out on parole) confidence is the name of the game.

They are, after all, just tools. (and you have an outstanding one in the M&P 45c.)

Congrats.

I will still recommend the 230 gr. +P HST for that 4" Bbl.... it will give you 5" Bbl std. pressure performance like this:

Federal .45 caliber HST





Nutter
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Old 04-20-2013, 20:51   #45
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Hey,

0300, barefoot, things-that-go-bump-in-the-night (when they're out on parole) confidence is the name of the game.

They are, after all, just tools. (and you have an outstanding one in the M&P 45c.)

Congrats.

I will still recommend the 230 gr. +P HST for that 4" Bbl.... it will give you 5" Bbl std. pressure performance like this:

[URL="http://thegunzone.com/45hst.html"]Federal .45 caliber HST[/URL]





Nutter
My favorite SD round!! I have 100 ready to go. I plan to burn a few tomorrow at the range.
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:15   #46
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Hope you get yours straightened out bro.... Never wanted a G36... It's Glock's problem child...
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:23   #47
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GicleeOne, I too will be interested in your results. I have followed this thread with a lot of interest.

I replied to a different post and stated that my G36 shot flawlessly after its return from Smyrna and an RSA replacement. Well, after approximately 100 rds, its back to the problem of frequent failures-to-load with an occasional stove-pipe. I mentioned this to an instructor at the range and he asked if he could shoot it. He ran four mags through the 36 flawlessly. He felt that my grip need to be harder. So, I tightened my grip (significantly) and ran 100 rds through with no problem.

With my G21 and G34 I use a firm grip, and with my G23 I use a very firm grip. Evidently, I will need to use a hard grip for the G36 to function properly. The instructor's philosophy is that every pistol should be held with a hard grip. So, I will be changing my grip strength on all pistols.

I'm not implying that changing to a hard grip is the all around solution - it appears to be the solution that will work with me and my G36. Having stated that, if changing the extractor and SLB to non-LCI will improve the gun's ease of use, I'll do it. I like the gun and I'm determined to make it work even if it means I need to step-up my own game.

Looking forward to your range report!
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:54   #48
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Quote:
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the 45GAP mini gun has the same balistics as the 45ACP but in a smaller gun and hasnt been plagued with the same problems the G36 has.....this is not a shooter or ammo problem, it is a gun design flaw.
Well damn I wish someone would have told me that about my G36 I've owned since 2001. Darn things has no problems with any ammo. Next time at the range I'll tell it "malfunction dammit! You're suppose to malfunction!"

Not denying the OP's issue, sure he has one, but I've read more posts from people having issues with the G36 then those having issues.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:29   #49
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Ok, just returned from the range after swapping out the LCI extractor and LCI SLB for the non LCI versions of each on my G36.

Ran 50 rounds of mixed self defense hollow points (Gold Dots, Golden Sabers & Winchester Ranger T). All were perfect in functioning but I wasn't expecting anything different here as I've not had one malfunction with SD ammo in over 500 rounds now.

Next up, I shot 50 rounds of Tulammo followed by 50 rounds of WWB, both 230 gr ball. Out of all 100 rounds I had ZERO malfunctions of any kind. Normally in the past out of 100 rounds of range ammo I'd have approx. 6-10 failures to extract such has been discussed here previously. In addition I intentionally limp wristed a dozen or so out of the 100.

Now maybe a sample of 100 is not large enough to say 100% that the problem is gone but I'd say it's a good starting indication and I'll reserve final judgement until I've got another 2-3 hundred rounds of range ammo through it but right now I'm a pretty happy camper.

So here we have confirmation from two different sources (one from another thread) where changing out the LCI extractor and SLB to the non LCI versions has seemingly solved the problem. Hope Glock is listening in here.

Will keep on posting results from future range time.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:53   #50
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Originally Posted by GicleeOne View Post
Please explain to me how a lighter/wimpy load causes the extractor to lose its grip on the casing, because that's what seems to be happening. The case is only partially extracted from the chamber and left sitting there to block chambering of the next round. It never gets far enough rearward to contact the ejector. I just don't see how a weaker charge would cause that.

My money is on the LCI extractor being the cause as proven by one other example posted in another thread and I'm about to hopefully prove the same thing in my case as I've swapped out my LCI extractor and SLB with the non LCI versions and I'll be heading to the range tomorrow morning to test it out.


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I'm talking only about guns that work with SD ammo and don't work with wimpy ammo. There are guns out there that don't work with anything - different problem.


Well, who knows for sure why FTEs occur on .45s? But a common response is "it works perfectly if I use expensive SD ammo" along with "but I'm too cheap to shoot that stuff". Which I fully understand, BTW. But that's not Glock's fault. They're pretty clear in the manuals that they expect full power NATO level loads. And many of these guns do function perfectly when fed that type of ammo and fail with lesser ammo.

In the 1911 world, we would just put in a lighter recoil spring and move on. It seems in the Glock world, folks want their guns to accumulate frequent flyer miles.

My guess is that the slide is coming back too slow (or not far enough) and the extracting case is hitting the casemouth of the round at the top of the magazine and getting ripped off the extractor. This still isn't rocket science. Look at the case that didn't extract. What kind of extractor marks are present? Any other marks on the rim? Like where it impacted the round at the top of the magazine? Ejector indentation? Look at a full power case that did extract and see what those marks look like. BTW, look at the rim itself and compare the cross sections. Do the wimpy rounds have a slightly different profile to the rim itself?

What about differences in taper crimp? Do the rounds that work seem to have less of the casemouth exposed? Is there a noticeable ridge on rounds that don't work? I'm beginning to think that this ridge trips the extracting round and yanks it off the extractor.

One last thing: look at the 'power factor' for the loads that work and those that don't. Power factor is bullet weight in grains times velocity in feet per second, all divided by 1000 (for convenience). Standard military ball ammo is a 230 gr FMJ at 830 fps. This is a power factor of 191 - pretty stout. Hydra-Shock is 230 gr at 900 fps so it has a PF of 207 - that ought to rock your world! To make 'major' (165 PF) for paper competition with a 230 gr LRN only requires 717 fps - pretty wimpy...

It is certainly possible that changing parts will improve the function. But the case under discussion involved a gun that worked perfectly with SD ammo and failed with lesser rounds.

Richard
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:03   #51
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Quote:
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I replied to a different post and stated that my G36 shot flawlessly after its return from Smyrna and an RSA replacement. Well, after approximately 100 rds, its back to the problem of frequent failures-to-load with an occasional stove-pipe. I mentioned this to an instructor at the range and he asked if he could shoot it. He ran four mags through the 36 flawlessly. He felt that my grip need to be harder. So, I tightened my grip (significantly) and ran 100 rds through with no problem.

With my G21 and G34 I use a firm grip, and with my G23 I use a very firm grip. Evidently, I will need to use a hard grip for the G36 to function properly. The instructor's philosophy is that every pistol should be held with a hard grip. So, I will be changing my grip strength on all pistols.
When Detonics came out with their pocket sized 1911ish .45, it took a whole different grip than a standard 5" 1911. The gun just didn't have enough mass to make the recoil system work. Jams were frequent. Plastic guns have even less mass.

In the 1911 world, it was said that your grip was correct when the wooden grips on the gun became sawdust on the ground.

I would fully expect the G36 to take a very firm grip. I would be disappointed in this, though, because what if I can only shoot weak hand, unsupported? I want a gun that will function if I have to use a weak hand two finger grip.

Maybe with full power ammo, even a G36 will function with a lesser grip.

One of these days I simply have to buy one. Just to check it out...

Richard
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:07   #52
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When Detonics came out with their pocket sized 1911ish .45, it took a whole different grip than a standard 5" 1911. The gun just didn't have enough mass to make the recoil system work. Jams were frequent. Plastic guns have even less mass.

In the 1911 world, it was said that your grip was correct when the wooden grips on the gun became sawdust on the ground.

I would fully expect the G36 to take a very firm grip. I would be disappointed in this, though, because what if I can only shoot weak hand, unsupported? I want a gun that will function if I have to use a weak hand two finger grip.

Maybe with full power ammo, even a G36 will function with a lesser grip.

One of these days I simply have to buy one. Just to check it out...

Richard

Please see my most recent post from my range experience this morning (just prior to your first post from today).
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:14   #53
DanMN
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Great to hear that the new extractor worked!


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Old 04-21-2013, 10:18   #54
GicleeOne
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Great to hear that the new extractor worked!


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Yes well so far anyway, keeping my fingers crossed but I'm encouraged. Thanks Dan.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:19   #55
DanMN
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I am comfortable with my grip. All my other handguns run with my current grip. I refuse to alter my grip just to make 1 pistol run right. I guess that would be my answer to that instructor. Talk to a different instructor and you will probably get a different answer on your grip. Just saying.


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Old 04-21-2013, 10:28   #56
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GicleeOne, Glad to see your 36 is functioning properly now.
The evidence seems to be mounting that on some 36's either there is not enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty case or the extractor "hook" angles are off possibly due to manufacturing tolerances.
Perhaps the "higher power" SD ammo overcomes this by simply having more recoil force and/or slide speed which causes the empty case to stay in place until contacting the ejector rather then relying on the the extractor to hold it in place. At any rate, that is something for someone more knowledgeable then me to figure out.
I am just glad it worked for your G36, please update the forum from time to time to let us know if the function changes.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:37   #57
GicleeOne
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GicleeOne, Glad to see your 36 is functioning properly now.
The evidence seems to be mounting that on some 36's either there is not enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty case or the extractor "hook" angles are off possibly due to manufacturing tolerances.
Perhaps the "higher power" SD ammo overcomes this by simply having more recoil force and/or slide speed which causes the empty case to stay in place until contacting the ejector rather then relying on the the extractor to hold it in place. At any rate, that is something for someone more knowledgeable then me to figure out.
I am just glad it worked for your G36, please update the forum from time to time to let us know if the function changes.
And thank you basment for pointing me in this direction. If it weren't for your info my next move was going to be calling Glock which most likely would have resulted in them sending me a new RSA which in turn most likely would not have helped.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:52   #58
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Please see my most recent post from my range experience this morning (just prior to your first post from today).
I read that! It's good to see a parts swap was a help. I'm not convinced it is necessary but it is sufficient.

When I eventually buy a G36, I may go the same way if I have any problems. I have no idea how it will work out.

The thing is, G36s may be a little scarce right now.

Richard
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:54   #59
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I read that! It's good to see a parts swap was a help. I'm not convinced it is necessary but it is sufficient.

When I eventually buy a G36, I may go the same way if I have any problems. I have no idea how it will work out.

The thing is, G36s may be a little scarce right now.

Richard
If it works the its necessary. AFAIC


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Old 01-24-2014, 23:59   #60
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I bought a brand new G36 (SN# LFR393) in 2008 that is plagued with failure to ejects. Any Ammo you want to run guys. Its absolutely stock, other than the parts and multiple magazines that Glock has replaced. Its been to Glock twice and nothing changed. Gun store told me to stuff it in the safe even though they fired it and it happened to their Glock armorer. My 36 is problems are not ammo related, that has been proven over and over and I have lots of pictures.

Later, I ended up buying a gen 3 G26 to carry and it has worked flawlessly.

You think whatever you want to feel good about your choices, I'm the one out the hard earned cash on a dud.
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