GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-04-2013, 21:01   #1
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
A new look on the draw stroke

I've using the 4 step draw stroke for many of years. Which I've very slightly modified to my type of shooting at the time. I saw this video with Ron Avery about his version of the draw to I thought I'd try it for myself. By the end of day I can draw, fire and hit a 4" circle in around 1sec (.94,.92,1.08,1.05). Tomorrow I will try the trigger stripe target.

Video on the draw

Video on trigger press and trigger strip target.
Part 1
Part 2

I would like to have an adult discussion about this and I encourage you to train on it. I am not saying this is THE way or BEST way to do it. I also don't want to hear negative personal opinions about the people involved. Check it out, give it shot, and other than above what do you think.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 21:46   #2
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
I'm always down to modify what I do to get faster. I'll give these vids a watch and their due consideration.

...On to the vids...
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 21:55   #3
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
Thank you kind Sir, I thought the same.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 22:19   #4
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Watched the vids. I'm going to have to give some of the smaller things some thought, although I agree with most of it. I haven't researched Avery; that will be on my list before commenting, as well.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 10:42   #5
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Well, I don't know if I like it. I agree with economy of motion. I use the same, although my draw stroke is different. I can't decide if I like Avery's principle since it it ultimately focused on the end point of the motion...how to get the pistol from point A to point B the fastest/efficient way (with solid control at point B). This leaves some uncovered areas in between. Both, Haley and Avery, have much more extensive resumes than I so I have to consider what they say but in the end I feel I have to continue doing what I do based on my needs. I also feel that his draw has more of a gun gamer appearance than Haley's. (just my opinion, everyone stay calm)

I wouldn't mind discussing further but it would be via pm if you care to do so.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 13:01   #6
clarson_75
Senior Member
 
clarson_75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 331
I get what he is saying and it is a good method for the type of shooting he is trying to teach. I feel combat shooting, which is what he is teaching, has some key differences from self-defense shooting. As a concealed carrier, I am more interested in self-defense shooting. I like the 2 part draw more for SD because from the high ready position all the way to my shooting stance I can be firing the gun with modest accuracy at SD ranges. Like almost everyone else on here, this is my opinion and their resume is much more extensive then my own.
__________________
Our two party system is like a giant bowl of **** staring at itself in the mirror ~ Lewis Black

This nation is lead by a government that doesn't care what the law is and filled with a majority of people that don't care what the government does.
clarson_75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 15:13   #7
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
USMC I dont believe this should replace what we do currently. Just as an other tool in the box that has a time and purpose. I don't think there is anything wrong with the 4step method and I will continue to use and teach it. I practice alot last night and took a friend to the range today who has been my training buddy for a long time. I pitched it to him and then taught it to him after I demo'd it he practiced and we gave it a run. After about 45mins to a hour he was on par with a 1sec draw and shot with exceptable combat accuracy (hitting a 5x8card placed on the chest of the target) @ 5&7 meters. It works pretty good but isn't the answer for everything. Oh and we shaved about .5sec off our 1-5 drill. So in all I'm happy with it and its something I can teach to shooters with more trigger time than normal.

Last edited by Infidel4life11; 05-05-2013 at 15:14..
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 15:15   #8
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
Thank you both for the interest
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 20:38   #9
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel4life11 View Post
USMC I dont believe this should replace what we do currently. Just as an other tool in the box that has a time and purpose. I don't think there is anything wrong with the 4step method and I will continue to use and teach it. I practice alot last night and took a friend to the range today who has been my training buddy for a long time. I pitched it to him and then taught it to him after I demo'd it he practiced and we gave it a run. After about 45mins to a hour he was on par with a 1sec draw and shot with exceptable combat accuracy (hitting a 5x8card placed on the chest of the target) @ 5&7 meters. It works pretty good but isn't the answer for everything. Oh and we shaved about .5sec off our 1-5 drill. So in all I'm happy with it and its something I can teach to shooters with more trigger time than normal.
I felt like I should come back to this; figured I'd throw some questions your way.

I realize this method may be faster, as it should, since it will cut out some pieces of the the draw but do you feel you are loosing anything by changing habits? My main concern is loosing engagement techniques between holster and final firing position. Do you think it is more efficient to put more focus on the end result of the draw rather than cover your bases on the way (close and ready firing positions)?
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 06:24   #10
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
I felt like I should come back to this; figured I'd throw some questions your way.

I realize this method may be faster, as it should, since it will cut out some pieces of the the draw but do you feel you are loosing anything by changing habits? My main concern is loosing engagement techniques between holster and final firing position. Do you think it is more efficient to put more focus on the end result of the draw rather than cover your bases on the way (close and ready firing positions)?
For me personally, I've been to four pistol classes at Gunsite, 1 course at Blackwater, 2 at Valhalla, Army Special Reaction team training, and Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor course. Just like every technique i have learned I believe the technique posted has a time and place.

Because you do lose the ability to engage right out of the holster at close and ready. You lose the ability to draw from a seated position like in your car. This draw stroke is very high profile and what I mean by that is: in .5secs or so you pistol is out, pointed and you are in that alarming (somebody is about to die) position. Versus you drawing and going to step 2 or 3 keeping the weapon close then maybe moving to or flanking your threat in a more low profile manner.

I've drawn my sidearm a few times at attacking dogs and at people using our 4step method and I believe things didn't get out of hand with bystanders because of my weapons presentation. That deliberate motion from my holster to my chest looks like I know exactly what I'm doing and I'm doing it in a safe manner.

Now the draw posted is more serious threat coming at you from within your public space(30ft) over the weekend we used the attack target which starts 30ft away and will hit you in 1.5 sec using the draw posted we had great success. We also did good on rapid incapacitation shots (25m shot to the head in under 2secs) but our long distance 50-100m shots suffered.

In all I think it is a good skill to have in the tool box but should not replace the 4step method.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 20:24   #11
samuse
Senior Member
 
samuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South TX
Posts: 5,162
Blog Entries: 2
Isn't that called bowling?
__________________
"If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin', you should be movin', if you're not movin', someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick." -Clint Smith


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
You suck at...well, everything so far.
samuse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 07:43   #12
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by samuse View Post
Isn't that called bowling?
Nope, bowling refers to the shooter drawing and swinging the weapon up in a circular motion often with just the strong hand. With bowling there is a lot of wasted motion. Here they go point A(just out of the holster) straight the point B (where you would break the shot with sights on target)
__________________
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.
Certified Glock Armorer.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 14:54   #13
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
Here is a look at it drawing from the appendix position. Not the same as posted above but he goes from holster, hands meet in the middle, straight to where he breaks his shot. I usually do this in about 1.50-1.70 inside of 15m. Once I hit 15m I slow down due to focusing more on clean hits.

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=pl7hI6aEvs4
__________________
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.
Certified Glock Armorer.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2013, 11:24   #14
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=NZie5VrhCkc

Here is a follow up with Cory. If you go to the 4:20 mark he puts hits on steel as fast as .75 also .80s from cc.
__________________
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.
Certified Glock Armorer.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2013, 12:17   #15
4Rules
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel4life11 View Post
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=NZie5VrhCkc

Here is a follow up with Cory. If you go to the 4:20 mark he puts hits on steel as fast as .75 also .80s from cc.
4Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2013, 17:54   #16
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Rules View Post
Thank you for fixing that
__________________
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.
Certified Glock Armorer.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2013, 21:13   #17
FireForged
Millenium #3936
 
FireForged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Rebel South
Posts: 4,479
FINALLY! someone has the guts to hint that all this over articulation that you see in the new generation of shooters... is not better than simply drawing and pointing the dern weapon like we have done for over 50 years. At least Ron has the creds to actually cause some to pause and consider what he is saying.

I actually heard a guy at the range tell his mid 20's son to "stop trying to look cool and put the front post on your target quickly". The kid was doing the typical robotic moves to the high chest and drive forward just to shoot a target 4 yards away.
__________________
"I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

Last edited by FireForged; 05-14-2013 at 21:22..
FireForged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2013, 10:24   #18
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
I've been training this since I started this thread. It's definitely fast and easy to be accurate if practiced. Again it's not for every situation but a good skill to have.
__________________
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.
Certified Glock Armorer.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2013, 18:17   #19
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel4life11 View Post
I've been training this since I started this thread. It's definitely fast and easy to be accurate if practiced. Again it's not for every situation but a good skill to have.
What's your personal best time with this method now that you have been runnin' it for a bit?
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2013, 20:19   #20
jp3975
Senior Member
 
jp3975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Texarkana, Tx
Posts: 6,386
tagged
jp3975 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2013, 21:44   #21
Clusterfrack
Senior Member
 
Clusterfrack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,083
The draw stroke looks good, but isn't really new. What I'm not liking so much is the "trigger stripe" video where I think Avery is telling us to tension the firing hand by trying to rotate it away from the support hand? Am I understanding what he's suggesting correctly?
__________________
"I have one simple request... and that is to have sharks with fricking laser beams attached to their heads!"--Dr. Evil
Clusterfrack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 10:28   #22
Jake Starr
Senior Member
 
Jake Starr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 4,651
No bowling, no fishing no swimming.
__________________
Christian pacifism is an option not a requirement.

The Christian faith is in no way pacifistic.
Jake Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 14:32   #23
Infidel4life11
Senior Member
 
Infidel4life11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Where the Army puts me
Posts: 287
USMC- about 2weeks, .82 fastest from kydex holster at the 3 o'clock on steel. I'm also 3weeks out of major shoulder surgery on my non firing side. So in about 6 weeks I should be in the .70s.


Clusterfrack- he was talking about holding tension in the outside part of your forearm. I found this works well when shooting 50+ meters. Shooters are usually missing left or right when shooting at those distances. I have them use that technique and get them on steel at distance.

I studied and tried the trigger stripe stuff a year ago. When I have students who can't group well even after dot drills, I have them try the techniques explained in the trigger stripe. It works try it.
__________________
I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.
Certified Glock Armorer.
Infidel4life11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 15:25   #24
RRP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 128
Thanks for the video links. Good information that I will incorporate in my dry drills.
RRP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2013, 15:38   #25
Clusterfrack
Senior Member
 
Clusterfrack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,083
Infidel--good copy. I'll try it --it's good to have another tool in the box for shooters who have trouble. The reason I was wondering about this is that I prefer not to do too many things that differ between two and one handed shooting.
__________________
"I have one simple request... and that is to have sharks with fricking laser beams attached to their heads!"--Dr. Evil
Clusterfrack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:16.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 727
174 Members
553 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42