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Old 05-15-2013, 18:54   #121
ArtyGuy
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Yeah, back when I was Fire Fighter, when someone needed help at the edge of our response area we'd wake up and say... Sorry, we might not make it in time, we might as well not bother. It's kinda far...

.
Putting military forces into combat and fighting a fire are not even closely related to each other. But let me ask, how often did your station respond to fires several states away? Or was that too far?
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Old 05-15-2013, 19:04   #122
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Putting military forces into combat and fighting a fire are not even closely related to each other. But let me ask, how often did your station respond to fires several states away? Or was that too far?
The Hotshots fly in here from other States for forest fires on little notice .

BTW what was the group in Tripoli doing ?
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Old 05-15-2013, 19:59   #123
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Hotshots are Woodland firefighters, which is vastly different than a city firefighter.

If you're referring to the 4 (or 6) Soldiers in Tripoli, they would have been sent to their death.

But since we seem to like firefighter analogies, do firefighters ever pull out of a structure, even when they know folks are still trapped, because the conditions are too unsafe and they fear they will lose more firefighters trying to rescue those who simply cannot be rescued? I've certainly watched interviews with firefighters/chiefs who have said just that.
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:17   #124
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Hotshots are Woodland firefighters, which is vastly different than a city firefighter.

If you're referring to the 4 (or 6) Soldiers in Tripoli, they would have been sent to their death.

But since we seem to like firefighter analogies, do firefighters ever pull out of a structure, even when they know folks are still trapped, because the conditions are too unsafe and they fear they will lose more firefighters trying to rescue those who simply cannot be rescued? I've certainly watched interviews with firefighters/chiefs who have said just that.
Well, if the White House was so well informed that they still thought afterward that it was a spontaneous demonstration, then how dangerous could it have been for trained soldiers to go in and secure the embassy?


It was no big deal so they didn't send help, or the attack was too well coordinated and they were too well armed to attempt a rescue.


Which one of the official lies are you really supporting ?

Funny when a wimp like Carter was in the WH we had the Iranian Embassy Hostage situation. How long was Reagan in office before they released the hostages?

Some folks in this world are only impressed and convinced by strength. Standing by and watching fellow Americans die, and doing nothing, is not a show of strength.



OH
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:26   #125
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So you've gone from Hotshots to Carter in two responses? Classic.

I'm pretty sure you didn't answer the question I asked previously. What experience do you have with military operations, reporting, and commanding troops? If you're going to freq hop with responses, I'd rather go lick razor blades because even that is more productive than discussing this with someone who injects random thoughts.
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:39   #126
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There is a problem with you narrative as it relates to this story.

Everyone in the white House is denying ever discussing the possibility. And if we didn't have the ability to back them up (and I think you are wrong) then why were they denied additional security in the first place? Oh , wait, Hillary is claiming she never got the memo.

So the story thus far is that the WH knew so little about the situation that they didn't know additional security had been requested. The WH also was so ignorant as to think that the whole thing was just a spontaneous demonstration over a video, BUT this WH WAS so well informed they knew that there was nothing they could do for those Americans screaming for help.

Basically your argument for the situation happening was because the White House was ignorant and your excuse for no rescue attempt was because the White House was so well informed,. They didn't have enough information to prevent it or judge the events but they had enough information to justify not doing a ^*&ed thing.

I smell the overwhelming odor of mendacity.
Precisely.

Had this event occurred in a vacuum, with no history of relentlessly escalating attacks, with no obvious high propaganda value date of 9/11 looming, and in the absence of at least two of the most comprehensively trained warriors on planet Earth--complete with at least one laser designator painting the enemies position(s)--there might be something about this story that was believable. As it stands, a couple of fast moving NATO aircraft armed with Hellfires could have made a difference.

For weeks after this travesty occurred, Comrade Zero and his fellow travelers wanted us all to know that they were convinced that the attack on 9/11/2012 was merely the result of a few peaceful Muslims driven into a frenzy by an evil American film maker. So much so, that they rounded up the scapegoat film maker, and put him in prison; where AFAIK he remains to this day. But now Comrade Zero's apologists shout from the mountain tops that the attack was performed by an invincible enemy, against which there was no hope of success.

It seems to me that the people with the "cartoonish view" reside in our nation's capital. They seem to have placed all their faith in the liberal pig media's ability to jam everything down the memory hole: good little piggies they may be, but they are certainly no Winston Smiths. Perhaps Mr. Gate's time would be better spent telling Comrade Zero that Commander-in-Chief is part of the president's job description.
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:47   #127
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Hellfire missiles are not hung on fast moving planes (jets). Pick a new weapon system.
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:57   #128
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So you've gone from Hotshots to Carter in two responses? Classic.

I'm pretty sure you didn't answer the question I asked previously. What experience do you have with military operations, reporting, and commanding troops? If you're going to freq hop with responses, I'd rather go lick razor blades because even that is more productive than discussing this with someone who injects random thoughts.
Sorry if you can't keep up, but I imagine it's troubling what with trying to believe both Administration lies at the same time.
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Old 05-15-2013, 21:09   #129
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Hellfire missiles are not hung on fast moving planes (jets). Pick a new weapon system.
AGM-65 ok?
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Old 05-15-2013, 22:57   #130
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AGM-65 ok?
JDAM, JSOW, maybe?
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Old 05-15-2013, 23:16   #131
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JDAM, JSOW, maybe?
I'm thinking that something is generally better than nothing.

There was certainly no shortage of weapons or planes when they needed Qaddafi removed.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:28   #132
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Ok, sure hang a GBU-31 on it. But let me ask, how do you expect them to identify the target from 20,000 AGL without receiving authorization from a ground commander, since this wouldn't be a pre planned target on the ATO? But let's forget how the USAF does business for a second and pretend the pilot flying the plane decides they want to end their career- how do you expect the pilot to positively identify the target so they can program the coordinates? They're going to target tracer fire? Even if they have no idea who the tracer fire is coming from? Nobody is on the ground talking to them. For all they know, they are watching friendly forces.

You're all proving former Secretary Gates comment that people have a cartoonish view of the military and how things are done.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:35   #133
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Sorry if you can't keep up, but I imagine it's troubling what with trying to believe both Administration lies at the same time.
If it helps, I never voted for the President. This has nothing to do with believing a story. It has everything to do with dealing with dangerous situations and knowing how difficult it is to ascertain information at the onset of a crisis. From a military perspective, initial reports are always wrong. So from several countries away, AFRICOM didn't have a clear picture at all. Commanders don't rush people to their death based upon incomplete information and not having the force structure present to ensure success.

Can answer my question? A simple yes or no is all that's needed. I'm sorry if it was too hard a question for you to keep up with.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:50   #134
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There were four men in Tripoli who were ready and willing to help but they were told to stand down. They could have made the difference.

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Old 05-16-2013, 05:29   #135
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There were four men in Tripoli who were ready and willing to help but they were told to stand down. They could have made the difference.

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Thought I read the plane they tried to get on landed after it was all over.

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Old 05-16-2013, 05:58   #136
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There were four men in Tripoli who were ready and willing to help but they were told to stand down. They could have made the difference.

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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:55   #137
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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
Since they weren't given the opportunity to try, we will never know if they would have succeeded or failed.

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The price to save Hambleton was astounding: 11 rescue forces were killed, six of them within his sight. Two more became POWs. 5 aircraft were shot down and others badly damaged. Scores of allied South Vietnamese forces died in related combat actions.

Hambleton, who died in 2004, assessed their sacrifices thusly: "I had to stand by and watch six young men die trying to save my life. It was a hell of a price to pay for one life. I'm very sorry"

From a cost-benefits analysis what Vogt did could be considered reckless. Vogt's own response was "I had to decide whether we should risk the loss of maybe a dozen airplanes and crews just to get one man out. Finally I said to myself, ******* it, the one thing that keeps our boys motivated is the certain belief that if they go down, we will do absolutely everything we can to get them out. If that is ever in doubt, morale would tumble. That was my major consideration. So I took it on myself. I didn't ask anybody for permission. I just said, "Go do it!".......

.....But, alas, there was no John Vogt. There was only a rogues' gallery of political survivalists and timid generals who were not going to risk careers "just to save one guy".

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...e_one_guy.html
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

And then there are all the lies from an administration that was caught flat footed and was determined to keep their narrative from imploding just before the election.


Regards,
Happyguy
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:16   #138
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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
Well, you definitely seem to have some sources that neither Obama, nor the media has. You need to tell them that they tried to cover this all up for nothing.

And, yes, I have operated jointly with special operations military units. Nothing exactly like this, though, I will admit. What I have seen, though, and it's not just with the military, but with my former agency as well, when it comes to personnel in trouble, is that you don't sit and make political calculations when deciding when it is time to go in. And, like you referenced with Shugart and Gordon, you don't look for perfect odds before you go in, something I've seen emphasized over and over again in our training, and in actual practice, for that type scenario. The important thing is, that you make that contract with people you send in harm's way, that you will try.

I admit I know nothing about you, or your experiences, or where you were assigned, and your history and training may very well have been different.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:33   #139
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AF Security personnel are not prepared to deal with those types of situations in the least. You'd be sending them to their deaths if you thought they could C2 themselves in that environment. They are great Americans but that's not what they do. They are not equipped nor are they trained in the necessary tactical skills to deal with a problem that complex.
You have stated over and over that we didn't have a grasp of what was going on on the ground.

Then you relegate these men and women, from another branch, to failure.

Interesting...

As to tactical skills, you might be surprised.

"Can't" is the easiest response there is.

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Happyguy
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:36   #140
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Thought I read the plane they tried to get on landed after it was all over.

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My understanding is that plane could have been launched much earlier but was deliberately delayed.

Could be wrong about that though, it's not like the administration has been a beacon of clarity and openness.

Regards,
Happyguy
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