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Old 05-16-2013, 09:55   #151
Fred Hansen
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I wonder what the world would be like if Presley O'Bannon had Comrade Zero as his CinC?

The Marine Corps Hymn lyric: '...to the shores of Virginia Beach...' just doesn't have a ring to it.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:36   #152
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DonGlock26 - keep up the good work! There are plenty of liberal targets, even here in GT.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:55   #153
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My understanding is that plane could have been launched much earlier but was deliberately delayed.

Could be wrong about that though, it's not like the administration has been a beacon of clarity and openness.

Regards,
Happyguy
Not sure either, too much noise, not enough news.

And also anything they release its tainted by CYA anyway...

I'm inclined to believe Gates, he was appointed by Bush, unlikely to be carrying water for Obama, no longer in the admin, so job its not at stake, was in a position to know real life capabilities/limitations involved. Finding it hard to dismiss his opinion.

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Old 05-16-2013, 13:30   #154
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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
They may have made a difference.
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Old 05-16-2013, 13:40   #155
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Not sure either, too much noise, not enough news.

And also anything they release its tainted by CYA anyway...

I'm inclined to believe Gates, he was appointed by Bush, unlikely to be carrying water for Obama, no longer in the admin, so job its not at stake, was in a position to know real life capabilities/limitations involved. Finding it hard to dismiss his opinion.

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Did you miss this part ?

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Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
Gates said Libyian air space was too dangerous because of missiles, but the US flew forces in the next day. Lie two.

BTW- I watched the Gates interview on CBS. He started off by saying that he only knows what he read in the paper!

I'll pull out the salient point and highlight it for you,

"BTW- I watched the Gates interview on CBS. He started off by saying that he only knows what he read in the paper"

That would be the information the Administration spoon fed the pare and they regurgitated and then he regurgitated .

Yah, hang your hat on that opinion.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:01   #156
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They may have made a difference.
Or it could have been Black Hawk Down II.

It really doesn't matter what the administration does or says. You guys would find fault with something and your Obamadrama would continue unabated.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:08   #157
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Or it could have been Black Hawk Down II.

It really doesn't matter what the administration does or says. You guys would find fault with something and your Obamadrama would continue unabated.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:12   #158
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You seem to forget which bull**** Comrade Zero version of the story you are trying to defend.



Comrade Zero didn't even bother to email the peaceful Muslims a picture of his No-Bell Pryze. If he had, perhaps they would have realized they can't attack us anymore since his No-Bell Pryze was awarded for all the peace he brought to the world.
I'm not defending any member of the administration. For me, the problems are all "left of the line". What all led up to that tragic event? Once it occurred, it was too late. I am coming at this from 20+ years of combat arms experience and 3 combat tours. I think I understand this stuff better than the average person. I have lived life when the rifle range is open in both directions. So I don't need a sermon from anyone about not leaving Soldiers, Americans, etc. behind. I understand those principles with crystal clear clarity.

I'll put a large ground unit availability into perspective. Let's pretend there was a BCT in Germany that was pulling the GRF OCONUS mission (there wasn't one). Lets also assume they were alerted to deploy within minutes of this happening. GRF units are on a deployment sequence that extends beyond a day (I'm not going to post specifics). That means the first units would have been wheels up from Germany well after a day from being notified. now they have to fly to Libya, land, assemble, and deploy. You honestly think they were going to make a difference? This things was over.

Let's pretend a Ranger unit from the east coast was alerted to deploy from the states. They are on a much shorter deployment sequence but they are not wheels up until much later than you probably think. You think they were going to make a difference? At best, they are stepping off a plane in Libya after a full 24 hours has passed from notification to deploy. Again, they have to assemble and then move. You think they were going to make a difference? The event was over.

You think 4 SF guys were going to make a difference? If reality was suspended and no friction occurred, they might have had a chance to arrive while hostilities were occurring. However, they would have been severely lacking equipment and ammunition considering why they were in the country to begin with. I suspect if a commander was given the option to deploy them, they quickly determined that based off of information available, those 4 great Americans would not influence the situation and would in all likelihood become casualties themselves.

So again, when Sec Gates said people have a cartoonish view of military capabilities, he is right. I don't care if 'ole Saint Nock and his 12 Reindeer are President. It doesn't change the fact that we can't beam units into combat. Once it went south in Libya, those guys were ****ed. That's the simple, ugly reality of it.

So I'll say it again. I think things that occurred left of the line should be looked at and not what the woulda, coulda, shouda fantasy military capabilities that people seem to think we have.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:22   #159
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That is correct but that is not the extent of their training.

Training for operations outside "the wire" is less than a typical Army unit but early on in Vietnam the USAF learned well that they can't depend on the Army to interdict enemy forces outside "the wire".

But apparently four operators were not enough. Neither would four operators backed by 40 USAF Security Forces be enough.

What exactly would have been enough?

Do you have "special" knowledge of the situation on the ground at the time?

Seriously, when will you stop saying can't? What will it take?

On top of that, we are assuming no regular Army units were available.

There were C130's in Ramstein there are C17 assets available. Bet they would have been happy to give the Army a lift.

Regards,
Happyguy
Happyguy,

Look at my post regarding deployment timelines. That's the reality of it. Guys aren't hanging around the airfield. I've been in the 82nd and 101st-- I know more about deployment sequence timelines than I could have ever wished for after being in those units.

I don't know what you did as a USAF Security Forces Airman. All I'm telling you is that either their mission set changed over the years or the USAF has atrophied their skills. There isn't a situation that would have occurred outside the wire in Iraq or Afghanistan that we would have launched USAF Security Forces to handle. They would have been wildly unprepared. They arent tracking battlespace movements, threat nriefs specific to the terrain, etc. If you want my honest opinion, the Red Horse (Engineers) guys know how to fight better than they do because they operate outside the wire. The Sec Force bubbas are focused only on the airfield. They don't have the responsibility to defend Bagram Airbase or a Khandahar Airfield. They check flight line credentials. There are separate units assigned to defend the base and there is a ground unit responsible for the battle space the airfields are in.

That said, I'm not saying they aren't great Americans or they can't be trained to conduct other mission sets. But as of today, I can't think of a commander who would entertain their employment into a situation like Libya. We might have had Jessica Lynch Part II.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:39   #160
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You think 4 SF guys were going to make a difference? If reality was suspended and no friction occurred, they might have had a chance to arrive while hostilities were occurring. However, they would have been severely lacking equipment and ammunition considering why they were in the country to begin with.

They probably would have been able to influence the outcome of a "spontaneous" demonstration if the crowd was not an organized force, which is what the Administration was claiming for how long again?




I suspect if a commander was given the option to deploy them, they quickly determined that based off of information available, those 4 great Americans would not influence the situation and would in all likelihood become casualties themselves.

But it was just a random crowd upset over a video. Remember the old saying "one riot, one Ranger". They wouldn't have been in that much danger and a few extra guns could have turned away a spontaneous mob. Maybe a fly-over would have helped after all the mob wasn't organized according to what the White House said they believed.



So again, when Sec Gates said people have a cartoonish view of military capabilities, he is right. I don't care if 'ole Saint Nock and his 12 Reindeer are President. It doesn't change the fact that we can't beam units into combat. Once it went south in Libya, those guys were ****ed. That's the simple, ugly reality of it.

So I'll say it again. I think things that occurred left of the line should be looked at and not what the woulda, coulda, shouda fantasy military capabilities that people seem to think we have.
In the law Judges instruct jurors that ,if any part of a a witness's testimony is proven to be a lie then anything that witness says may also be treated as false.

It makes it real hard on folks trying to be witnesses backing up this Administrations actions.
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Old 05-16-2013, 15:19   #161
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In the law Judges instruct jurors that ,if any part of a a witness's testimony is proven to be a lie then anything that witness says may also be treated as false.

It makes it real hard on folks trying to be witnesses backing up this Administrations actions.
True, so true. It must be perilous being in the BHO admin.
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Old 05-16-2013, 22:34   #162
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I'm not defending any member of the administration. For me, the problems are all "left of the line". What all led up to that tragic event? Once it occurred, it was too late. I am coming at this from 20+ years of combat arms experience and 3 combat tours. I think I understand this stuff better than the average person. I have lived life when the rifle range is open in both directions. So I don't need a sermon from anyone about not leaving Soldiers, Americans, etc. behind. I understand those principles with crystal clear clarity.

I'll put a large ground unit availability into perspective. Let's pretend there was a BCT in Germany that was pulling the GRF OCONUS mission (there wasn't one). Lets also assume they were alerted to deploy within minutes of this happening. GRF units are on a deployment sequence that extends beyond a day (I'm not going to post specifics). That means the first units would have been wheels up from Germany well after a day from being notified. now they have to fly to Libya, land, assemble, and deploy. You honestly think they were going to make a difference? This things was over.

Let's pretend a Ranger unit from the east coast was alerted to deploy from the states. They are on a much shorter deployment sequence but they are not wheels up until much later than you probably think. You think they were going to make a difference? At best, they are stepping off a plane in Libya after a full 24 hours has passed from notification to deploy. Again, they have to assemble and then move. You think they were going to make a difference? The event was over.

You think 4 SF guys were going to make a difference? If reality was suspended and no friction occurred, they might have had a chance to arrive while hostilities were occurring. However, they would have been severely lacking equipment and ammunition considering why they were in the country to begin with. I suspect if a commander was given the option to deploy them, they quickly determined that based off of information available, those 4 great Americans would not influence the situation and would in all likelihood become casualties themselves.

So again, when Sec Gates said people have a cartoonish view of military capabilities, he is right. I don't care if 'ole Saint Nock and his 12 Reindeer are President. It doesn't change the fact that we can't beam units into combat. Once it went south in Libya, those guys were ****ed. That's the simple, ugly reality of it.

So I'll say it again. I think things that occurred left of the line should be looked at and not what the woulda, coulda, shouda fantasy military capabilities that people seem to think we have.
Nice of you to go off on a 7 paragraph tangent, but the point of my post was that there were fully trained personnel on site complete with a laser, and the communication gear who begged for air support for 5+ hours.

Comrade Zero had no problem killing 25 Navy SEALs +13 others in a single Chinook crash in Kablamistan, had no problem using our jets and weapons to destabilize Libya, and make it ripe for the Muslim brotherhood picking, but somehow this tiny band of peaceful Muslim protesters are deemed invulnerable to every weapon in our arsenal.

As I said, good thing 1st Lt O'Bannon didn't have a POS like Comrade Zero as CinC.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:35   #163
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Nice of you to go off on a 7 paragraph tangent, but the point of my post was that there were fully trained personnel on site complete with a laser, and the communication gear who begged for air support for 5+ hours.

Comrade Zero had no problem killing 25 Navy SEALs +13 others in a single Chinook crash in Kablamistan, had no problem using our jets and weapons to destabilize Libya, and make it ripe for the Muslim brotherhood picking, but somehow this tiny band of peaceful Muslim protesters are deemed invulnerable to every weapon in our arsenal.

As I said, good thing 1st Lt O'Bannon didn't have a POS like Comrade Zero as CinC.

Talk about tangents.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:54   #164
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Talk about tangents.
Indeed.

Your little novella on what we can't do reminded me of my first CinC--Jimmuh Cahtuh--that little peanut-flecked turd of a Democrat had limitless excuses as to why he was impotent against our nation's enemies. He stood around doing nothing while our ambassador to Kablamistan was killed; did nothing for 444 days when peaceful Muslim "students" took our embassy and its staff in Tehran; but he sure showed those Russkies! LMAO While it is true that he let them roll right in to Kablamistan, he knew that banning America from participating in the Olympics would break the Russians' spirit.



He'd even sit on TV in a fruity little sweater, and tell us we would have to get used to the idea of just being cold all winter. LOL!


http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/153913-1


Then (thank God) Ronald Reagan became president, and we were able to tell the Soviets that America wasn't putting up with their bull**** anymore, and that their days as the CCCP, were numbered. Excuses and fruity little sweaters be damned.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:21   #165
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Did you miss this part ?




I'll pull out the salient point and highlight it for you,

"BTW- I watched the Gates interview on CBS. He started off by saying that he only knows what he read in the paper"

That would be the information the Administration spoon fed the pare and they regurgitated and then he regurgitated .

Yah, hang your hat on that opinion.
My point was he knows their capabilities, the limitations due to logistics as far as how quickly they can be deployed. Speaking in general here.

Obviously he's not in the loop, being out of office for a while. You may have missed where I posted earlier asking what assets were in the area, how far away are they. How were they equipped.

That's the news I was referring to that is the critical piece missing.

Gates understands the process better than any of us. He has no more specifics on this particular situation than we do. That still adds up to his opinion having more weight than anyone here. He also has no axe to grind, no ass to cover, no reason to lie. Most everyone else talking has an agenda biasing their point of view. They're either covering for Obama at all costs, or hate his guts. Neither is particularly interested in the truth, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:23   #166
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Once again, we find liberals and conservatives, have completely different ideas on a very important issue.

I think we can put this down as just one more area where we are very different people.

Maybe before a government employee or soldier goes into dangerous places, they should start asking the question, "If things turn to ****, are you coming in to get me or not?"

At least then, you wouldn't have to waste time making calls for help that wasn't going to come, when you could be trying to shoot or evade your way out of the problem instead.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:02   #167
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There's something that doesn't add up in this story. Calling it protestors vs terrorists to avoid campaign issues, and then calling off a rescue and leaving them to die.

An overrun embassy, compound is bad for your campaign no matter who does it. Even a failed rescue attempt leaves valiant heroes behind to rally behind and plays better than not bothering to try. And a successful rescue is a great campaign booster. There is no political upside to stopping the attempt.

Something is wrong with the picture you're trying to paint. Those two stories are incompatible.

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Old 05-18-2013, 11:24   #168
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There's something that doesn't add up in this story. Calling it protestors vs terrorists to avoid campaign issues, and then calling off a rescue and leaving them to die.

An overrun embassy, compound is bad for your campaign no matter who does it. Even a failed rescue attempt leaves valiant heroes behind to rally behind and plays better than not bothering to try. And a successful rescue is a great campaign booster. There is no political upside to stopping the attempt.

Something is wrong with the picture you're trying to paint. Those two stories are incompatible.

Randy

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Obama told us "Bin Laden is Dead" so he took credit for taking the head off the snake and the threat of Muslim terrorists was over. Once the White House decided that it wasn't and organized attack, it couldn't be Bin Laden was dead, they couldn't admit that there was any organization left in the terrorist world. That is why the "talking points" were scoured and scrubbed clean of any reference to "terrorists". The line was that they were just peaceful Muslims at heart that were greatly incensed by a (old) video that had mocked their prophet. "They were righteously indignant" was how the WH wanted it played. Hence they sent Susan Rice around to spread the lie.

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Old 05-18-2013, 12:00   #169
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Obama told us "Bin Laden is Dead" so he took credit for taking the head off the snake and the threat of Muslim terrorists was over. Once the White House decided that it wasn't and organized attack, it couldn't be Bin Laden was dead, they couldn't admit that there was any organization left in the terrorist world. That is why the "talking points" were scoured and scrubbed clean of any reference to "terrorists". The line was that they were just peaceful Muslims at heart that were greatly incensed by a (old) video that had mocked their prophet. "They were righteously indignant" was how the WH wanted it played. Hence they sent Susan Rice around to spread the lie.
I wasn't clear, I get that part, the part that doesn't work is the part about calling off the rescue for some nefarious reason. The two stories are incompatible, doesn't mean both are false.

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Old 05-18-2013, 12:24   #170
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I wasn't clear, I get that part, the part that doesn't work is the part about calling off the rescue for some nefarious reason. The two stories are incompatible, doesn't mean both are false.

Randy
Well, there is no good reason for calling off the rescue, if they believed the story they tried to sell about the video and it being a "protest'. That pretty much brings us back to a nefarious lie.

Then we have the problem of the Ambassador requesting more security and being denied, especially with 9/11 coming up, of course to beef up security might be admitting there was still terrorism afoot, so risking the Embassy in the face of warnings seems nefarious to me.

Of course one might look at the fact that they had been provided a laser designator, with no intention of having assets to back up that capability, as being nefarious.

Now there does exist the possibility that it was all sheer incompetence .



"An overrun embassy, compound is bad for your campaign no matter who does it. Even a failed rescue attempt leaves valiant heroes behind to rally behind and plays better than not bothering to try. And a successful rescue is a great campaign booster. There is no political upside to stopping the attempt."


Allow me to point out that having an Embassy overrun is not good but, then again a failed rescue attempt did not save Carter. Dead "valiant heroes" didn't get him reelected.

The fact that everything coming from the WH has been in error or a flat out lie, and still nobody is being held responsible for the stand down.

Now all of that may not spell "nefarious" to you, but it doesn't spell "Good and on the Up-and-Up" to me.
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Old 05-18-2013, 13:05   #171
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You seem to forget which bull**** Comrade Zero version of the story you are trying to defend.



Comrade Zero didn't even bother to email the peaceful Muslims a picture of his No-Bell Pryze. If he had, perhaps they would have realized they can't attack us anymore since his No-Bell Pryze was awarded for all the peace he brought to the world.
Your article is misleading and it further illustrates the OP of this thread. People have a cartoonish understanding of our military's capabilities.

The guys at the compound had this on their weapon:
Political Issues

that does not and will not designate jack _____.

FYI a laser designator that can guide in bombs or missles looks something like this:
Political Issues



Don't forget for one second that there is misinformation coming from both sides of the isle on this issue
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Old 05-18-2013, 14:09   #172
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Your article is misleading and it further illustrates the OP of this thread. People have a cartoonish understanding of our military's capabilities.

The guys at the compound had this on their weapon:
Political Issues

that does not and will not designate jack _____.

FYI a laser designator that can guide in bombs or missles looks something like this:
Political Issues



Don't forget for one second that there is misinformation coming from both sides of the isle on this issue
Our gear is top-notch.
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Old 05-18-2013, 15:06   #173
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Our gear is top-notch.
And yet peaceful Muslim protesters are invulnerable to them.

What a curious thing.
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Old 05-18-2013, 15:17   #174
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Your article is misleading and it further illustrates the OP of this thread. People have a cartoonish understanding of our military's capabilities.

The guys at the compound had this on their weapon:

that does not and will not designate jack _____.


According to this,

"The Annex team also had Ground Laser Designators, or GLD. This kind of laser equipment emits code and signal when there is overhead air support, unmanned aerial surveillance, drones or Spectre gunships, for instance."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz2TgI4bGHk

Your post doesn't designate jack ----

Don't forget for one second that there is misinformation coming from both sides of the isle on this issue
Yah, and look who it's coming from
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Old 05-18-2013, 15:35   #175
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Well, there is no good reason for calling off the rescue, if they believed the story they tried to sell about the video and it being a "protest'.
I'm not following your line of reasoning, protest or terrorists, I'm not sure what difference that makes in deciding whether to call off the rescue, whether they believed it or not, which one it was?
Quote:
That pretty much brings us back to a nefarious lie.
Then we have the problem of the Ambassador requesting more security and being denied, especially with 9/11 coming up, of course to beef up security might be admitting there was still terrorism afoot, so risking the Embassy in the face of warnings seems nefarious to me.
This is where we ought to be looking, the preparations were inadequate. I think you're reaching on the "admitting terrorism is still afoot", nobody to my knowlege has declared the war on terrorism was over when Bin Laden got the first few of his promised 72 raisins in the noggin courtesy of Seal Team 6.

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Of course one might look at the fact that they had been provided a laser designator, with no intention of having assets to back up that capability, as being nefarious.

Now there does exist the possibility that it was all sheer incompetence .
Incompetence covers a multitude of scenarios... Leaving embassies purposely inadequately protected in the run up to an election in an attempt to pretend terrorism doesn't exist? That doesn't really make any sense, nobody knows how much security is in place, they can beef it up to actually prevent or prevail in attacks, nobody would know, and the outcome would be a courtyard of dead terrorists instead of ambassadors. That would help if embassy security were really all about electoral politics.

Quote:

"An overrun embassy, compound is bad for your campaign no matter who does it. Even a failed rescue attempt leaves valiant heroes behind to rally behind and plays better than not bothering to try. And a successful rescue is a great campaign booster. There is no political upside to stopping the attempt."


Allow me to point out that having an Embassy overrun is not good but, then again a failed rescue attempt did not save Carter. Dead "valiant heroes" didn't get him reelected.
Carter did squat for 400 some odd days prior to that, that failed attempt was the icing on the cake, the coup de grace to his incompetence, and failing so spectacularly without even any contact with the enemy really put a bow on it. There would likely be a wholly different perception to a failed attempt in this case. Assuming the rescue effort didn't self destruct in a similar manner. Those are really apples and oranges.

Quote:
The fact that everything coming from the WH has been in error or a flat out lie, and still nobody is being held responsible for the stand down.

Now all of that may not spell "nefarious" to you, but it doesn't spell "Good and on the Up-and-Up" to me.
Nefarious is a conclusion jumped to at this point. It doesn't sound good to me either, but early reports on a situation like that are always wrong. People have a lot of guesswork, and calling the early reports lies are pretty thin.

Do we even know who called the stand down yet? I haven't seen that info out there yet? How far up the chain was that decision made? What assets were they going to send, and how were they equipped when they were told to stand down, and how far away were they?

These are pertinent questions that need to be looked at to evaluate the decision. Gates doesn't seem to think its necessarily an outlandish decision from his attitude.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 05-18-2013 at 15:38..
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