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Old 05-16-2013, 07:50   #141
ArtyGuy
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I wouldn't be surprised at their skills. I've been assigned to an AFB and I've seen them on a deployment. They remain inside the wire because of the tasks they perform. They aren't trained to handle those types of tactical problems. They'd be set up for failure if they were committed to such an engagement.


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Old 05-16-2013, 07:56   #142
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They remain inside the wire because of the tasks they perform. .


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That is correct but that is not the extent of their training.

Training for operations outside "the wire" is less than a typical Army unit but early on in Vietnam the USAF learned well that they can't depend on the Army to interdict enemy forces outside "the wire".

But apparently four operators were not enough. Neither would four operators backed by 40 USAF Security Forces be enough.

What exactly would have been enough?

Do you have "special" knowledge of the situation on the ground at the time?

Seriously, when will you stop saying can't? What will it take?

On top of that, we are assuming no regular Army units were available.

There were C130's in Ramstein there are C17 assets available. Bet they would have been happy to give the Army a lift.

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:03   #143
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Series1811-

There's a difference between a QRF launching in Afghanistan and having to respond to an incident where very little is known.

In Somalia, we deliberately conducted a raid and as such, had the proper forces and C2 structure in place and when that started going awry, confusion set in. Now imagine a JOC miles and miles and miles away getting notification that something is going on on their AOR. They'd have a hell of a time figuring out what was happening. Hell, as an S3 in combat, it was difficult to know what was going on once a platoon came into contact-- we were two levels of command removed. Why is it hard? Firefights are very confusing. People reporting are trying to make sense of what they are dealing with and even they change their information from one radio transmission to their next transmission. It's the reality of it and why we've coined the phrase "Fog of War".

For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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Old 05-16-2013, 08:08   #144
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Because a unit did something in Vietnam means they are still proficient? Things change over 40 years.

I've already said it. Unfortunately, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent their deaths once the rifle range opened. What failed to the left of that line is what I'd be more concerned about.


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Old 05-16-2013, 08:10   #145
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Series1811-

There's a difference between a QRF launching in Afghanistan and having to respond to an incident where very little is known.

In Somalia, we deliberately conducted a raid and as such, had the proper forces and C2 structure in place and when that started going awry, confusion set in. Now imagine a JOC miles and miles and miles away getting notification that something is going on on their AOR. They'd have a hell of a time figuring out what was happening. Hell, as an S3 in combat, it was difficult to know what was going on once a platoon came into contact-- we were two levels of command removed. Why is it hard? Firefights are very confusing. People reporting are trying to make sense of what they are dealing with and even they change their information from one radio transmission to their next transmission. It's the reality of it and why we've coined the phrase "Fog of War".

For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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You know, I've talked to several guys (Kyle Lamb, Mike Durant, Danny McNight), plus numerous of the 75th guys when I was at Benning training with them in 1994), that were in Somalia, and part of that operation (and worked in the same office with two of them for several years, a SF Sgt. attached to Garrison's staff, and a soldier in the 10th who was on the rescue convoy), and I haven't met a one of them who thinks that operation went horribly wrong, or that they even lost the fight. I sure haven't met one who thought what they did was futile or stupid, or not the correct response to fellow Americans in trouble (in fact the soldier who was on the rescue convoy with the 10th told me he was never as scared in his whole life as when he found out they were going into the battle, but he was more afraid he wouldn't be picked to go).
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:23   #146
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For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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I guess there is a different breed of man in charge now.

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:28   #147
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Because a unit did something in Vietnam means they are still proficient? Things change over 40 years.

I've already said it. Unfortunately, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent their deaths once the rifle range opened. What failed to the left of that line is what I'd be more concerned about.


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If they've forgotten those lessons, relearning them will be expensive.

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Old 05-16-2013, 09:01   #148
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Series1811-

My next door neighbor at Campbell was a PSG in the Ranger Company (Steele was the commander). He freely admitted things went horribly wrong and that they became complacent. Every raid had been quick. That's why they didn't have batteries for NVGs, little to no water, and not enough ammo. There are plenty of AARs that objectively point it out.

Now when it came time to fight, they did what they do best.


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Old 05-16-2013, 09:05   #149
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By the way, I'm not trying to bash the valiant actions those guys took. I'm using it as an example of how even with many of the C2 systems in place and the flash to bang for leadership to make a decision was incredibly short, combat situations become incredibly difficult
and confusing even for our very best trained forces. Now imagine a Combatant Commander who receives
An "Oh *****" call out of nowhere.


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Old 05-16-2013, 09:46   #150
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Ok, sure hang a GBU-31 on it. But let me ask, how do you expect them to identify the target from 20,000 AGL without receiving authorization from a ground commander, since this wouldn't be a pre planned target on the ATO? But let's forget how the USAF does business for a second and pretend the pilot flying the plane decides they want to end their career- how do you expect the pilot to positively identify the target so they can program the coordinates? They're going to target tracer fire? Even if they have no idea who the tracer fire is coming from? Nobody is on the ground talking to them. For all they know, they are watching friendly forces.

You're all proving former Secretary Gates comment that people have a cartoonish view of the military and how things are done.
You seem to forget which bull**** Comrade Zero version of the story you are trying to defend.

Comrade Zero didn't even bother to email the peaceful Muslims a picture of his No-Bell Pryze. If he had, perhaps they would have realized they can't attack us anymore since his No-Bell Pryze was awarded for all the peace he brought to the world.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:55   #151
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I wonder what the world would be like if Presley O'Bannon had Comrade Zero as his CinC?

The Marine Corps Hymn lyric: '...to the shores of Virginia Beach...' just doesn't have a ring to it.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:36   #152
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DonGlock26 - keep up the good work! There are plenty of liberal targets, even here in GT.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:55   #153
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My understanding is that plane could have been launched much earlier but was deliberately delayed.

Could be wrong about that though, it's not like the administration has been a beacon of clarity and openness.

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Happyguy
Not sure either, too much noise, not enough news.

And also anything they release its tainted by CYA anyway...

I'm inclined to believe Gates, he was appointed by Bush, unlikely to be carrying water for Obama, no longer in the admin, so job its not at stake, was in a position to know real life capabilities/limitations involved. Finding it hard to dismiss his opinion.

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Old 05-16-2013, 13:30   #154
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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
They may have made a difference.
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Old 05-16-2013, 13:40   #155
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Not sure either, too much noise, not enough news.

And also anything they release its tainted by CYA anyway...

I'm inclined to believe Gates, he was appointed by Bush, unlikely to be carrying water for Obama, no longer in the admin, so job its not at stake, was in a position to know real life capabilities/limitations involved. Finding it hard to dismiss his opinion.

Randy

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Did you miss this part ?

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Gates said Libyian air space was too dangerous because of missiles, but the US flew forces in the next day. Lie two.

BTW- I watched the Gates interview on CBS. He started off by saying that he only knows what he read in the paper!

I'll pull out the salient point and highlight it for you,

"BTW- I watched the Gates interview on CBS. He started off by saying that he only knows what he read in the paper"

That would be the information the Administration spoon fed the pare and they regurgitated and then he regurgitated .

Yah, hang your hat on that opinion.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:01   #156
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They may have made a difference.
Or it could have been Black Hawk Down II.

It really doesn't matter what the administration does or says. You guys would find fault with something and your Obamadrama would continue unabated.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:08   #157
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Or it could have been Black Hawk Down II.

It really doesn't matter what the administration does or says. You guys would find fault with something and your Obamadrama would continue unabated.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:12   #158
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You seem to forget which bull**** Comrade Zero version of the story you are trying to defend.



Comrade Zero didn't even bother to email the peaceful Muslims a picture of his No-Bell Pryze. If he had, perhaps they would have realized they can't attack us anymore since his No-Bell Pryze was awarded for all the peace he brought to the world.
I'm not defending any member of the administration. For me, the problems are all "left of the line". What all led up to that tragic event? Once it occurred, it was too late. I am coming at this from 20+ years of combat arms experience and 3 combat tours. I think I understand this stuff better than the average person. I have lived life when the rifle range is open in both directions. So I don't need a sermon from anyone about not leaving Soldiers, Americans, etc. behind. I understand those principles with crystal clear clarity.

I'll put a large ground unit availability into perspective. Let's pretend there was a BCT in Germany that was pulling the GRF OCONUS mission (there wasn't one). Lets also assume they were alerted to deploy within minutes of this happening. GRF units are on a deployment sequence that extends beyond a day (I'm not going to post specifics). That means the first units would have been wheels up from Germany well after a day from being notified. now they have to fly to Libya, land, assemble, and deploy. You honestly think they were going to make a difference? This things was over.

Let's pretend a Ranger unit from the east coast was alerted to deploy from the states. They are on a much shorter deployment sequence but they are not wheels up until much later than you probably think. You think they were going to make a difference? At best, they are stepping off a plane in Libya after a full 24 hours has passed from notification to deploy. Again, they have to assemble and then move. You think they were going to make a difference? The event was over.

You think 4 SF guys were going to make a difference? If reality was suspended and no friction occurred, they might have had a chance to arrive while hostilities were occurring. However, they would have been severely lacking equipment and ammunition considering why they were in the country to begin with. I suspect if a commander was given the option to deploy them, they quickly determined that based off of information available, those 4 great Americans would not influence the situation and would in all likelihood become casualties themselves.

So again, when Sec Gates said people have a cartoonish view of military capabilities, he is right. I don't care if 'ole Saint Nock and his 12 Reindeer are President. It doesn't change the fact that we can't beam units into combat. Once it went south in Libya, those guys were ****ed. That's the simple, ugly reality of it.

So I'll say it again. I think things that occurred left of the line should be looked at and not what the woulda, coulda, shouda fantasy military capabilities that people seem to think we have.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:22   #159
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That is correct but that is not the extent of their training.

Training for operations outside "the wire" is less than a typical Army unit but early on in Vietnam the USAF learned well that they can't depend on the Army to interdict enemy forces outside "the wire".

But apparently four operators were not enough. Neither would four operators backed by 40 USAF Security Forces be enough.

What exactly would have been enough?

Do you have "special" knowledge of the situation on the ground at the time?

Seriously, when will you stop saying can't? What will it take?

On top of that, we are assuming no regular Army units were available.

There were C130's in Ramstein there are C17 assets available. Bet they would have been happy to give the Army a lift.

Regards,
Happyguy
Happyguy,

Look at my post regarding deployment timelines. That's the reality of it. Guys aren't hanging around the airfield. I've been in the 82nd and 101st-- I know more about deployment sequence timelines than I could have ever wished for after being in those units.

I don't know what you did as a USAF Security Forces Airman. All I'm telling you is that either their mission set changed over the years or the USAF has atrophied their skills. There isn't a situation that would have occurred outside the wire in Iraq or Afghanistan that we would have launched USAF Security Forces to handle. They would have been wildly unprepared. They arent tracking battlespace movements, threat nriefs specific to the terrain, etc. If you want my honest opinion, the Red Horse (Engineers) guys know how to fight better than they do because they operate outside the wire. The Sec Force bubbas are focused only on the airfield. They don't have the responsibility to defend Bagram Airbase or a Khandahar Airfield. They check flight line credentials. There are separate units assigned to defend the base and there is a ground unit responsible for the battle space the airfields are in.

That said, I'm not saying they aren't great Americans or they can't be trained to conduct other mission sets. But as of today, I can't think of a commander who would entertain their employment into a situation like Libya. We might have had Jessica Lynch Part II.
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Old 05-16-2013, 14:39   #160
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You think 4 SF guys were going to make a difference? If reality was suspended and no friction occurred, they might have had a chance to arrive while hostilities were occurring. However, they would have been severely lacking equipment and ammunition considering why they were in the country to begin with.

They probably would have been able to influence the outcome of a "spontaneous" demonstration if the crowd was not an organized force, which is what the Administration was claiming for how long again?




I suspect if a commander was given the option to deploy them, they quickly determined that based off of information available, those 4 great Americans would not influence the situation and would in all likelihood become casualties themselves.

But it was just a random crowd upset over a video. Remember the old saying "one riot, one Ranger". They wouldn't have been in that much danger and a few extra guns could have turned away a spontaneous mob. Maybe a fly-over would have helped after all the mob wasn't organized according to what the White House said they believed.



So again, when Sec Gates said people have a cartoonish view of military capabilities, he is right. I don't care if 'ole Saint Nock and his 12 Reindeer are President. It doesn't change the fact that we can't beam units into combat. Once it went south in Libya, those guys were ****ed. That's the simple, ugly reality of it.

So I'll say it again. I think things that occurred left of the line should be looked at and not what the woulda, coulda, shouda fantasy military capabilities that people seem to think we have.
In the law Judges instruct jurors that ,if any part of a a witness's testimony is proven to be a lie then anything that witness says may also be treated as false.

It makes it real hard on folks trying to be witnesses backing up this Administrations actions.
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