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Old 05-15-2013, 02:31   #21
Southpaw69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
A new 870 will be a downgrade...
This was my thought as well. I'd take the '69 and keep it original and then get a new one if need be. That's just my opinion.
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Old 05-15-2013, 16:58   #22
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You never stated what you are going to use the weapon for and rather strange all these knowledable people failed to ask before giving their educated comments.

If you intend to use it for defense then you have a weapon that is most likely pre- flex tab and I don't recomend it for a defense weapon unless you upgrade it. If it does not have the flex tab conversion this requires three different parts which are 1. New breech bolt 2. New slide 3. New carrier. The Parts run $141. Or you can try to get the Flex Tab Convesion kit from Brownells for $100.00. Good Luck with that. If it has the flex tab conversion already you are as good to go with it as any 870 in a fight.

If it is just for hunting the you are fine.
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Old 05-15-2013, 17:28   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RutgersGrad View Post
Thanks. While it's tempting to buy an 870P anyway for the hell of it, sounds like I can spend that money better elsewhere. Could I get an 18 inch barrel for that Wingmaster? Not that it would be that much shorter than the 20 inch I have...
Buckshot. Get lots and lots of buckshot and slugs with your newfound savings.

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Old 05-15-2013, 21:02   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
You never stated what you are going to use the weapon for and rather strange all these knowledable people failed to ask before giving their educated comments.

If you intend to use it for defense then you have a weapon that is most likely pre- flex tab and I don't recomend it for a defense weapon unless you upgrade it. If it does not have the flex tab conversion this requires three different parts which are 1. New breech bolt 2. New slide 3. New carrier. The Parts run $141. Or you can try to get the Flex Tab Convesion kit from Brownells for $100.00. Good Luck with that. If it has the flex tab conversion already you are as good to go with it as any 870 in a fight.

If it is just for hunting the you are fine.
He stated "target practice and maybe HD" in the first post.

JD, I typically would not disagree with you, but I do on this one. I have never experienced the jam that the flex tab addresses in my years of running an 870. If you load it properly, and "run it like you've got a pair", you won't experience this jam either. It's nice to have, but it certainly won't stop me from using my '59 model for self defense. What did LE do for the 30 some odd years before the flexitab was invented?
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:07   #25
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Nor have I, however, on the range I have had to clear plenty of them while re-qualifingt officers. I am assuming and maybe wrongly so that when people ask basic questions on a gun forum they are not as proficient as others and basic answers and advice are called for. However in this case the advice is the same for anyone who is going to use an 870 for defense.

I have never discharged a shotgun in the line of duty and had I, I am not sure how it would have went being that stress and fear have entered the equation. So with that in mind I would recomend the Flex tab convesion for any 870 that could be used in a defense situation. Including mine. Jam a shell between the carrier and the breech bolt during a fight and you are now holding an 8 pound baton.

I do not know a single knowledgable person who would not prepare their fighting weapons to be a Murphy proof as possible.

What LEO's did for all those years is end up in fights with jamed weapons. That is why the Flex Tab Conversion kit was LE restricted for all those years and at a greatly reduced cost price to LEO upon verification it was a duty weapon or for Agencies. Remington felt obligated to correct this flaw in their LE weapons. While at the factory I specificlly ask why the Flex tab conversion kit was $78 and LE restricted yet a civlian could by the same three parts for $140. The answer was that the sporting models were for hunting and if a shooter had a jam he could stop and clear it without his life being in danger. But the police models were built for use against human threats that were shooting back and there was not time to stop and break a weapon down to clear it. I replied that the lives of all those people who use their older 870's for home defense and even Bear Defense were just as important as anyone elses and tens of thousand still put confidence older 870's to protect them and their loved ones.

I am still unclear if the LE restriction has been lifted for the Conversion kit. I think it depends on which cubical clown answers the phone when you call to order.
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Last edited by aippi; 05-17-2013 at 16:18..
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:42   #26
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Sell the Wingmaster and use an 870 Police, preferably with a Speedfeed stock and a Surefire forend.

Ignore the fudds.

Last edited by Andrewsky; 05-18-2013 at 09:42..
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Old 05-18-2013, 18:13   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
You never stated what you are going to use the weapon for and rather strange all these knowledable people failed to ask before giving their educated comments.

If you intend to use it for defense then you have a weapon that is most likely pre- flex tab and I don't recomend it for a defense weapon unless you upgrade it. If it does not have the flex tab conversion this requires three different parts which are 1. New breech bolt 2. New slide 3. New carrier. The Parts run $141. Or you can try to get the Flex Tab Convesion kit from Brownells for $100.00. Good Luck with that. If it has the flex tab conversion already you are as good to go with it as any 870 in a fight.

If it is just for hunting the you are fine.

So the self proclaimed expert in all things 870 calls out everyone else that answered and basically says they are an idiot when he himself didn't even read the original post. Its right there what the OP's intended use was.

OP: It'll just be for target practice and maybe HD.

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Old 05-18-2013, 19:12   #28
schapman43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
A new 870 will be a downgrade...
I would have to agree. There is nothing better than those old Wingmasters.
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Old 05-18-2013, 19:16   #29
schapman43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbow View Post
The newer 870s have more non metal parts. Other than that, an older wingmaster is basically a police model configured for hunting.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Remember we're talking about the Police model here. Those "plastic" parts don't exist on the Police models.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:49   #30
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:21   #31
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:04   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RutgersGrad View Post
I've been seriously considering getting a Remington 870P. Synthetic stock, 7 round capacity, etc. But my Dad gave me his old 44 year old Wingmaster 870. Has a 28 and 20 inch barrel and in excellent condition.. As much as I would love a nice 870P right now, if I could find a reason to save my money and just use the Wingmaster... It'll just be for target practice and maybe HD. Might this old rifle be good enough of a reason to save me some money on buying a new shotgun?
I have an excellent condition 1969 Wingmaster that I use as a
general purpose shotgun. I do have a Browning for a hunting gun,
prefer the BPS due to the 3" chamber. As for the 870, much, MUCH
Better quality that can be had with a new one. I changed the barrel
to a blued 20" with an extended mag.

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Old 05-19-2013, 11:29   #33
aippi
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AKJD - your personal attack is petty at best. As for Self Proclaimed Expert? Having worked on these for over 32 years, being factory Certified on the 870 as an Law Enforcement Armorer with trips to the factory in Ilion every 3 years ( infact, re-certified at the factory the week of April 15th this year) does not equate to self proclaimed. I am in fact an Expert on these weapons and you sir are out of line and should apoligize. You can review my factory Certifications on www.aiptactical.com before you do. The amount of misinformation being given on gun forums about the Remington shotgun can fill a book and reqular members should appriciate correct information. As for other weapons, I know almost nothing and take mine to a gun smith as I have more sence then to risk damage to one. Nor do I post in on those topics. The only way a forum will ever be benificial is is when people stop posting on something they know so little about or are just repeating from a post on another forum. And of course when an Expert like me answers a question on that topic. I will also add that if you go to your search block enter the words "Custom Tactical Shotgun" and hit search you find me very easy as I have been sitting there in the first position of page one of the entire world wide web for years. Have never paid a cent for advestizing or even optimizing the web site. Word of mouth travels fast when people find someone that knows the subject.

Also, calling me out if I miss something is Cool, no foul there, but the Self Proclaimed Expert comment requires an apology as it is incorrect since the Remington Law Enforcement Training Divsion has considered me an Expert for years.
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Last edited by aippi; 05-19-2013 at 12:07..
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Old 05-19-2013, 17:28   #34
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First of all, I will apologize to the original poster for hijacking his thread.

aippi,

I find it comical that you demand an apology, but offer none to those you called out. Typical narcissit.

I'm bet you are the only person that has ever attended the Remingtn Armorer course several times.

You remind me of the DEA agent that shot himself in the leg.

"No one is more professional than I" Bang. LMAO
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Old 05-19-2013, 23:04   #35
cyphertext
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewsky View Post
Sell the Wingmaster and use an 870 Police, preferably with a Speedfeed stock and a Surefire forend.

Ignore the fudds.
Please share your wisdom...why should he sell the Wingmaster?
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Old 05-19-2013, 23:22   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Nor have I, however, on the range I have had to clear plenty of them while re-qualifingt officers. I am assuming and maybe wrongly so that when people ask basic questions on a gun forum they are not as proficient as others and basic answers and advice are called for. However in this case the advice is the same for anyone who is going to use an 870 for defense.

I have never discharged a shotgun in the line of duty and had I, I am not sure how it would have went being that stress and fear have entered the equation. So with that in mind I would recomend the Flex tab convesion for any 870 that could be used in a defense situation. Including mine. Jam a shell between the carrier and the breech bolt during a fight and you are now holding an 8 pound baton.

I do not know a single knowledgable person who would not prepare their fighting weapons to be a Murphy proof as possible.

What LEO's did for all those years is end up in fights with jamed weapons. That is why the Flex Tab Conversion kit was LE restricted for all those years and at a greatly reduced cost price to LEO upon verification it was a duty weapon or for Agencies. Remington felt obligated to correct this flaw in their LE weapons. While at the factory I specificlly ask why the Flex tab conversion kit was $78 and LE restricted yet a civlian could by the same three parts for $140. The answer was that the sporting models were for hunting and if a shooter had a jam he could stop and clear it without his life being in danger. But the police models were built for use against human threats that were shooting back and there was not time to stop and break a weapon down to clear it. I replied that the lives of all those people who use their older 870's for home defense and even Bear Defense were just as important as anyone elses and tens of thousand still put confidence older 870's to protect them and their loved ones.

I am still unclear if the LE restriction has been lifted for the Conversion kit. I think it depends on which cubical clown answers the phone when you call to order.
JD, I understand what you are saying, and why you recommend it. I see it more as operator error that was overcome by re-engineering the hardware vs. training. Since Remington could make a change in the hardware to minimize the effect of operator error, they wisely did. I don't argue the fact that it makes the gun more reliable. I just wouldn't overlook and older shotgun because of this. Be aware of the cause and prevention and practice racking that slide hard with the older guns.

And I know, as I am sure you do too, what the officers did before the flex tab. They either transitioned to the side arm, or they tried to mortar that shotgun to get it back into the fight, if they had cover, resulting in a cracked stock and maybe clearing the malfunction.

And I do appreciate what you bring to this and other forums... your experience and expertise is very valuable.
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Old 05-20-2013, 19:41   #37
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As the OP, I see I stirred up a mess here lol. I've learned from this thread that my old 870 Wingmaster is good enough, but I was thinking of going crazy and maybe getting an 870P anyway.. lol At least then I could see for myself haha
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Old 05-21-2013, 20:39   #38
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I can't offer such extensive experience as some other members here, but I restored 30 years old Wingmaster last year and I own the new 870P as well. What can I say?
Wingmaster was smoother, but it was used for nearly 30 years, so it's no brainer...however Police is getting smoother as we speak and I believe that for HD I'm better served with the newer shotgun. Flex tab is only one of the reasons behind my opinion...the tritium rifle sights are another for example. While bead is still the fastest system inside for me, the rifle sight offers greater flexibility with very little price in terms of speed (it's just a bit slower than bead inside, but it's certainly not a significant difference). However it gives me an opportunity to make much easier hits with the slugs past 15-25 yards. I personally can't stand the ghost ring sights, but that just me.
It's not like You'll be in trouble with the Wingmaster...but I believe that the new Police is as good if not better choice for any serious application.
Good luck with your choice.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:28   #39
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My agency has around 1,600 of the 870's in service and they get used regularly. We have several of them that were purchased in 1969. As noted by aippi, they've been re-furbished...but they're certainly still running strong with incredibly smooth actions. Don't let the age of your gun worry you, especially considering that is was only lightly used and well cared for.

As noted above, use the money you save to buy ammo, or (since you intend to employ it as a HD weapon) get some training.
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Old 05-26-2013, 09:48   #40
Jim S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewsky View Post
Sell the Wingmaster and use an 870 Police, preferably with a Speedfeed stock and a Surefire forend.

Ignore the fudds.
First off it is a sentimental value gun from his father so I doubt he wants to sell it.
Second there is nothing wrong with using it as a home defense weapon. Don't have to add anything to it either.
A 20" barrel is fine and the 18" won't make it any better or worse.
Easy to add an extension if that makes you feel any better.
4+1 is still pretty awesome in a 12g shotgun.
The only difference will be the older gun can only fire 2 3/4" shells where the newer gun will fire the bigger shells.
Big deal.
The 2 3/4 are fine and have less blast and kick to them.
If money is the issue you will be fine using the old gun.
Someday you can get the Police but for now you are good with the old wing master.
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