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Old 02-19-2011, 08:54   #81
dpadams6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docj78 View Post
Yea--I snagged a box of the 135 Federals at Wally World, too. Wasn't sure about the ballistics, but for the price, I couldn't pass on them.

I've since read the limited ballistic tests and "experiences". Still think that they may be a great "summer/light clothing" choice. May grab some more next stop at the "mart".
It seems now a days, everyone wants penetration, penetration, penetration, with a bullet that completely holds together. But if you look at all the on the street "proven" rounds for the past many years, the best ones are the ones that fragment. AKA: 9mm federal 115 +P+ and the 357 magnum federal 125jhp. Both these rounds worked fantastically for law enforcement, but everyone wants more penetration since the FBI says so. I'll take the real life street proven rounds over what the FBI "says" are better.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:07   #82
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If I do carry my 40 S&W, I prefer the WW 180 PDX1 or the 180gr GD.
I like heavy for caliber no matter what I'm shooting.

They both get good deep penetration. I am not much for the lighter bullets.

If I had to choose a 165gr for some reason it would be the WW PDX1 bonded.


Good luck.



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Old 02-19-2011, 11:58   #83
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Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
It seems now a days, everyone wants penetration, penetration, penetration, with a bullet that completely holds together. But if you look at all the on the street "proven" rounds for the past many years, the best ones are the ones that fragment. AKA: 9mm federal 115 +P+ and the 357 magnum federal 125jhp. Both these rounds worked fantastically for law enforcement, but everyone wants more penetration since the FBI says so. I'll take the real life street proven rounds over what the FBI "says" are better.
I don't know where you're getting this street proven information from, but it's simply not true.

A number of federal agencies and the LE departments/agencies in the state I worked in kept the traditional .357mag/158gr weight because feedback on 125gr was, it was NOT as effective as the 158gr. The .357mag got its reputation with the 158gr weight (same sectional density group as 10mm/200gr), not the 125gr JHPs.

From scientific OIS .357mag street reports as written by Dr. Roberts:

Quote:
During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research with Dr. Fackler, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast, as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed. As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. For those individuals who doubt evidence based research and prefer “street results”, the CHP, the largest agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reports significantly better results in their officer involved shootings since switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data from 1989-90, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers. I first saw the data when it was presented during a wound ballistic conference I attended at the CHP Academy in the early 1990's; I heard it discussed again at a CHP Officer Involved Shootings Investigation Team meeting in November of 1997 at Vallejo, CA. The information reviewed the differences in ammunition terminal performance such as penetration depth, recovered bullet characteristics, tissue damage and other physiological measurements and physical evidence detailed during forensic analysis..."
BTW, jacketed .357mag ammunition didn't hit the streets 'til the late 60s, that's according to Speer.

To the OP, it would appear that CHP is getting better results with .40/180gr than the .357mag/125gr as referenced above.

Bob
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:18   #84
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I don’t see 15 grains making that much of a difference in shots that are being made at 21 to 40 ft but some one will say I am wrong and that’s there choice. I shoot 165g federals because they are cheep.
Remember this: trauma kills and not bullet weight. Weight is a factor in penetration but 15g is not such a big factor that it will tilt any scales on a pistol

here is a link the proves my point
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...VERPENETRATION
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:26   #85
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165gr GDHP in a G23. Some sources say to use lightweight, fast-expanding loads for the shock, other sources say use heavyweight, slow loads for increased penetration. I decided to split the difference. Recoil is snappy, but not so much that I couldn't get good groups firing quickly. I bought a few boxes of GDHP inexpensively, and a case of 165gr Lawman TMJ for balistically-identical practice rounds. They're reliable in the gun. The 165gr GDHP seems to have a good track record in actual shootings, as well as passing the FBI tests. I have no need to try anything else right now.
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Old 02-19-2011, 13:31   #86
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How many of these "Which bullet weight in .40?" threads are there??

I've used 165gr & 180gr loads as issued ammunition and have tried some lighter weights over the years.

I tend to like the 180gr loads, myself.

Over the years I've used a couple of issued standard JHP loads by Win & Rem, as well as a premium load by each company (Win RA40TA 165gr & RA40T 180gr T-Series and Rem's 180gr Golden Sabre GS40SWB). Given my druthers, I prefer the premium loads in 180gr bullet weight.

BTW, a close friend of mine was with the CHP when they carried .357 Magnum & .38 Spl revolvers, as well as when they'd transitioned over to the .40 S&W pistols. He was a weapons officer until his retirement and we spoke a bit about his experiences over the years. As was mentioned by another source in Glolt20-91's posting, my friend similarly told me that they received much better performance and were much better satisfied with the 180gr .40 S&W as a duty caliber (even using "old-style" 180gr Win JHP's - RA40180HP) than they ever were with the .357 Magnum & .38 revolver calibers and loads they'd used over the years.
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Old 06-07-2013, 14:35   #87
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Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
I don’t see 15 grains making that much of a difference in shots that are being made at 21 to 40 ft but some one will say I am wrong and that’s there choice. I shoot 165g federals because they are cheep.
Remember this: trauma kills and not bullet weight. Weight is a factor in penetration but 15g is not such a big factor that it will tilt any scales on a pistol

here is a link the proves my point
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...VERPENETRATION
Unless my reading comprehension has dwindled as I have gotten older. From what I read in the article via the link you provided, my old friend, you contradict yourself. As stated in the article, the heavier projectile was preferred over top of the lighter projectiles for a few reasons listed in the article.

This will be a little exagerated but compare being hit by a fast moving baseball then hit by a slightly slower moving bowling ball. The slower moving bowling ball will do more damage due to the larger surface area and weight.

I have taken my G23 out for comparison testing of my own into the desert. I compared Federal HST 180gr LEO loads to Speer Gold Dot 165gr Duty Ammunition. Test media was basic 1 gallon plastic milk jugs filled with water then I added paper shreddings from my office shredder trash can.

Walked 25 paces as my firing distance (just seemed like a good distance, what-ever) then started shooting. I had more devistation to the milk jug bad-guys using the 180gr HST then I did with the 165gr GD. I still carry both, one magazine has the 165gr LEO loads. The other which is loaded in the G23 has the 180gr HST with one always in the chamber ready to get to work when needed.

At the end of the day, it is personal preference just like when that guy tried telling me I was stupid and wrong for having 00-buckshot AND slugs loaded into my shotgun for home defense. I have my reasons for that barage' of shells.

Take it easy, see you around the forums buddy.
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Old 06-07-2013, 14:48   #88
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Winchester Ranger "T" Series 165 grains--expansion
is aprox. .84 and penetration is 11 1/2 inches.
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:55   #89
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Purchased a box of the 127gr +P+ LEO Ranger Ts for my wife's 9mm. Looking forward to doing a side by side with the 147gr HST LEO currently loaded in her G19. Will be taking some glass similar to what is installed around our house: a few sheets of drywall and an old metal entry door to simulate each barrier she may have to shoot through should we have a home invasion and I am not home.

Take it easy Coffee
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:08   #90
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I prefer 180gr ammo. I am of the slow and heavy camp. I like the perceived recoil of the slightly slower and heavier bullet better also.
I am in the fast and heavy camp, 180 and up for me.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:33   #91
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Speer gold dots in any caliber! I like 165 grain in 10mm short. 124grain in 9mm. 230 grain in 45acp. Why i like these rounds cause they are very accurate,the bullets hold up through most hard barriers. And they are easy to find in any gun/sporting goods store.


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Old 06-08-2013, 18:28   #92
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Did I post this link?


http://kiesler.com/videodetail.aspx?id=1534


180 gr for me, will shoot 165 gr anytime I get a deal on it.
Outstanding link-thank-you
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:22   #93
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
I don't know where you're getting this street proven information from, but it's simply not true.

A number of federal agencies and the LE departments/agencies in the state I worked in kept the traditional .357mag/158gr weight because feedback on 125gr was, it was NOT as effective as the 158gr. The .357mag got its reputation with the 158gr weight (same sectional density group as 10mm/200gr), not the 125gr JHPs.

From scientific OIS .357mag street reports as written by Dr. Roberts:



BTW, jacketed .357mag ammunition didn't hit the streets 'til the late 60s, that's according to Speer.

To the OP, it would appear that CHP is getting better results with .40/180gr than the .357mag/125gr as referenced above.

Bob


Howdy Bob--good to see ya on Glocktalk. Many thanks for this information.

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 06-09-2013 at 10:22..
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:25   #94
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I carry 155 grain Gold Dots. They shoot very well.
This. ^^^^^
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Old 06-09-2013, 17:04   #95
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Yeah... I'm a big HST fan, but I bet the ranger would be nearly identical.
Trust me, stick with HST. Between online tales and my own testing (pork loins with denim) the Rangers have a propensity to not expand----or do so half-assed----when the HP has to deal with "clothing". I've NEVER had that happen with HST's of any caliber/weight.

Although I'm not a "heavy-for-caliber" fan the 180gr HST is the way to fly in .40 S&W. The skives in the bullet are cut all the way back to the case mouth (maybe more, I've never pulled a bullet to see) and therefore it's the consistently largest expanding HST .40 load.

The only exception to the 180gr HST in .40 I *might* make is the 150gr Nosler by DoubleTap......it's a HOT load and is rated at 1275fps from a 4" barrel. I might also go with a 155gr cup-and-core JHP if someone (reading this Mr. Underwood?) would load one to the old Border Patrol specs of 1250fps.

My personal opinion is that you just can't go wrong with HST in any caliber.
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Old 06-09-2013, 17:51   #96
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From GATE, Mas Ayoob answers this very question

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1487690

Mas,

I'm sure you get asked this all the time but I really respect your experience and opinion so I'm going to ask anyway.

I have done a lot of pre-research and have opted to use Speer Gold Dots in my Glock 23 EDC self-defense gun. My question is should I use 165 or 180 grain bullets?

Thanks,
S41ph3r


Response:

Personally, I'm partial to the 165 grain full velocity
(spec'd for 1140 foot-seconds or so, as opposed to the subsonic version).

best,
Mas
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Old 06-09-2013, 21:33   #97
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I just got out of a FBI firearms recert class, and I was told the Bureau is going away from the Winchester 180 due to functioning problems when paired with the Glock 23. They are going back to the Gold Dot 165, moving at 1150 fps. The Winchester was a good round, but F.T.U. just couldn't make it work reliably.
The thing to remember about the FBI ammo protocols is they were designed to mimic situations that agents were encountering in shootings. They're not a catchall for everyone, you need to design test protocols that reflect what you're likely to see.
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Old 06-09-2013, 22:02   #98
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180 HST here, the others woul probably be better at long distance but I carry for PD.
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Old 06-09-2013, 22:53   #99
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I just got out of a FBI firearms recert class, and I was told the Bureau is going away from the Winchester 180 due to functioning problems when paired with the Glock 23. They are going back to the Gold Dot 165, moving at 1150 fps...

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:28   #100
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Wow I originaly posted here in Feb 2013,I shoot either 180/165 .40, but prefer 180 gr for practice and or carry. I have shot the Fed HST/Win PDX-1/Speer GDHP in my G-22/23/27 and find the PDX and GDHP most accurate in my hands out of my guns. The HST while a very well designed round, was the least accurate for me.
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