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Old 06-16-2013, 14:04   #41
ranger1968
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Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
No......
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Old 06-16-2013, 17:26   #42
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I never knew about that one when I was there, lol. I guess they don't let us Burro officers over there because they're afraid we'll screw it up somehow or something, lol.
We only shot their once. We shot their to qualify with duty ammo before we graduated.
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Old 06-16-2013, 19:38   #43
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We only shot their once. We shot their to qualify with duty ammo before we graduated.
Gotcha. CITP?
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Old 06-16-2013, 20:09   #44
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Agency add on for HSI.
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Old 06-16-2013, 20:40   #45
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Agency add on for HSI.
Fun times. I didn't realize that HSI's add-on was at FLETC as well.
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Old 06-17-2013, 21:38   #46
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Was not designed to and will not pass the FBI ammo protocols. Not designed to penetrate anything but a clothed individual, and not very well at that (most tests I've seen are in the neighborhood of 10" in bare gelatin for 115 grain 9mm). With everything out there that does meet FBI criteria, there is no logical reason for an agency to issue Critical Defense.

ETA: Hornady themselves state Critical Defense is not intended for LE use: http://www.hornady.com/support/criti...itical-defense
Dually noted, just sent the link to my FTO.
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Old 06-17-2013, 23:28   #47
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Dually noted, just sent the link to my FTO.
If they like Hornady, the Critical Duty round in the link looks similar to Critical Defense but is actually more robust and designed to pass FBI protocols, just FYI. Still probably better all around to stick with Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, or Winchester Ranger-T though.
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Old 06-18-2013, 13:45   #48
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Once state contract pricing dropped the cost of duty JHP to the cost of major factory ball loads (or lower), we went to using duty JHP for normal quals/training.

It made it possible to shoot existing duty loads for every qual and replace it with fresh duty loads.

Green loads for outside training, if needed due to the venue.

Surplus factory ball loads which surface now and again (seized, donated, acquired from other agencies, etc) get dumped into qual/training stations for use as extra ammo if needed by shooters over & above whatever they're carrying on the gun belts. (Remediation, re-shoots, extra practice, etc.)

We had to start limiting duty ammo availability for off-duty weapon quals when increasingly more folks started bringing in multiple guns. We carry the major duty calibers (9, .40 & .45), as well as .380 & .38 Spl +P. Folks with more than a couple of off-duty weapons (or other authorized calibers) are told to bring their own factory ammo if they want to shoot a lot more of their own guns for quals.

We provide ammo for the same "common calibers" for LEOSA & retirement quals, as well as pre-scheduled range access, targets & instructor staff as a courtesy ... although that could change at any time, of course.

When I was a young cop we were handed 1 box of duty ammo when hired, and then given little plastic bags of nasty LRN or LSWC remanufactured loads for quals. "New" duty ammo was seldom seen unless it had to occur due to new guns/calibers. You had to buy your own better quality (or Magnum) ammo if you wanted to do more than minimum quals or practice.

We only managed to get the money to buy new factory qual ammo after going from revolvers to new hi-cap 9's and having a couple of the LRN remanufactureed loads cause issues during quals.

We have it a LOT better nowadays (aside from occasional waiting on order due to production/supply demands, of course).
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Old 06-20-2013, 18:22   #49
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Same here, except when at FLETC. FLETC only allows frangibles.
Not true, plenty of folks at FLETC shoot duty ammo. The Center Basic Programs, UPTP, CITP, etc., use frangible but Agency Advanced, in-service and state & local training is often done with duty carry ammo.

Quote:
USBP (and any Federal agency for that matter) shoots 100% duty ammo, 100% of the time.
Also not true, several federal agencies use a less expensive (or more expensive non-toxic) ammo for practice.

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There is the 1 lead range. Must wear gloves, dust mask recommended, shot targets and brass go into special bins.

You'd think they store spent nuke rods there...
LOL, best one yet, where do you guys get this stuff? Actually FLETC has 3 lead ranges and gloves or masks are not required or recommended. Only the used cleaning supplies go into "special bins" and that's an EPA requirement. The targets go in the trash and the brass gets recycled.
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Old 06-20-2013, 18:35   #50
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Originally Posted by R.T. View Post
Not true, plenty of folks at FLETC shoot duty ammo. The Center Basic Programs, UPTP, CITP, etc., use frangible but Agency Advanced, in-service and state & local training is often done with duty carry ammo.

Also not true, several federal agencies use a less expensive (or more expensive non-toxic) ammo for practice.

LOL, best one yet, where do you guys get this stuff? Actually FLETC has 3 lead ranges and gloves or masks are not required or recommended. Only the used cleaning supplies go into "special bins" and that's an EPA requirement. The targets go in the trash and the brass gets recycled.
Um, probably comes from personal experience there.

What agency are you with again?
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Old 06-20-2013, 20:59   #51
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Originally Posted by R.T. View Post
Not true, plenty of folks at FLETC shoot duty ammo. The Center Basic Programs, UPTP, CITP, etc., use frangible but Agency Advanced, in-service and state & local training is often done with duty carry ammo.

Also not true, several federal agencies use a less expensive (or more expensive non-toxic) ammo for practice.

LOL, best one yet, where do you guys get this stuff? Actually FLETC has 3 lead ranges and gloves or masks are not required or recommended. Only the used cleaning supplies go into "special bins" and that's an EPA requirement. The targets go in the trash and the brass gets recycled.
Cop Talk
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Old 06-20-2013, 21:44   #52
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Gone back & forth.
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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 06-21-2013, 18:37   #53
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Um, probably comes from personal experience there.

What agency are you with again?
For the last 11 years I have worked for FLETC. The 22 years prior to coming to FLETC, I worked for 2 different Federal agencies and 1 Local.

How about you?
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Old 06-21-2013, 18:39   #54
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Cop Talk
Excellent!
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Old 06-27-2013, 21:45   #55
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If they like Hornady, the Critical Duty round in the link looks similar to Critical Defense but is actually more robust and designed to pass FBI protocols, just FYI. Still probably better all around to stick with Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, or Winchester Ranger-T though.
Correction, the dept issues Critical Duty, I was mistaken. The reason i thought they issued Defence is there was a couple of boxes in the console of my FTO's cruiser, turns out they were some personal boxes he had purchased for his wifes gun.
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