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Old 07-02-2013, 18:18   #26
devildog2067
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Why are they still considered a church?
Why wouldn't they be?
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Old 07-02-2013, 18:39   #27
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I keep expecting to hear where some friend or family member of the deceased has gone postal and put about half that WBC scum in the dirt.

Now that's one funeral I would attend, to piss on the WBC members graves.

Yeah, as far as being the lowest kind of human being, those people are close to getting top honors.
Probably never happens for the same reason that people don't usually pick on the retarded. I guess decent folks figure these "church" people are at the same level.
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Old 07-02-2013, 18:49   #28
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I think they are running out of money. They have promised to picket a bunch of funerals lately, but haven't shown. Half of their own family congregation has left the "church". I hope their bs game is up.
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Old 07-02-2013, 19:25   #29
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I have no idea who those people are, and I haven't watched any of the news coverage on this event. I was there, and I can't possibly imagine anything that has taken place on this fire that someone would find offensive or wrong. Every one of us worked as hard as humanly possible to contain the fire, retrain the damage, and to prevent loss of life and property. These young men gave their entire team and their lives. What more does anyone want?
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Old 07-02-2013, 19:32   #30
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I have no idea who those people are, and I haven't watched any of the news coverage on this event. I was there, and I can't possibly imagine anything that has taken place on this fire that someone would find offensive or wrong. Every one of us worked as hard as humanly possible to contain the fire, retrain the damage, and to prevent loss of life and property. These young men gave their entire team and their lives. What more does anyone want?
I think the general Westboro premise is that God has lifted his veil of protection from the US because of our acceptance of gays, so this would just be God reiterating his point.
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Old 07-03-2013, 00:47   #31
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God didn't kill those boys. Fire did, and it wasn't sent from God. It was a wildfire, moving with a storm, which was a product of random convective lifting action from the earth's surface, which was the result of solar heating of the earth's surface. The westboro church needs to get out more.

Maybe read a book.
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Old 07-03-2013, 00:59   #32
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Originally Posted by robbcayman View Post
I think they are running out of money. They have promised to picket a bunch of funerals lately, but haven't shown. Half of their own family congregation has left the "church". I hope their bs game is up.
Am I remembering correctly that this is (or is one of) the groups that do the picketing thing and intentionally stir stuff up so a to create a legal "cause of action" which they then use to sue the person(s) or group they used to create the cause of action to begin with? ?

Along the same lines as those "Sovereign Citizens" groups that spend a lot of time trying to collect settlements in the bogus lawsuits they pursue police, etc., with?

Also somewhat related to that totally bogus "law firm" that was filing all kinds of copyright infringement suits against different publications and websites, sometimes even though they hadn't bothered to acquire legal ownership of the very copyrighted material they used as the basis of their bs nonsense lawsuits?
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:10   #33
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WTF is wrong with those people?
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:12   #34
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I think the general Westboro premise is that God has lifted his veil of protection from the US because of our acceptance of gays, so this would just be God reiterating his point.
Doesnt sound like a very loving God to me. In fact, that sounds more like Satan.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:29   #35
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WTF is wrong with those people?
They didn't get dropped on their heads enough as little kids.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:15   #36
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Why wouldn't they be?
Because in reality they are a family of scumbag lawyers that use their church as a cover to bait people into retaliating against them so they can file lawsuits. It's how they make their living.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:51   #37
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Because in reality they are a family of scumbag lawyers that use their church as a cover to bait people into retaliating against them so they can file lawsuits. It's how they make their living.
Doesn't a fish have to take the bait before he is caught?

If these people were doing something illegal and the people "retaliating" were doing something legal, it wouldnt work.

Read you statement and lets change it a little:

Because in reality they are a family of scumbag lawyers that use their church as a cover by performing legal acts to cause people to perform illegal acts against them so they can file lawsuits. It's how they make their living.

Keep in mind, the only reason this works is because people get angry and then cross the line. The WBC knows not to cross the line into illegal.

Are you defending people getting mad and crossing the line because they cannot keep their emotions in check?
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:33   #38
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Justice has many forms. Some of them relate to law.


Yes, you heard that from me. No, I won't go further.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:40   #39
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These WBC people are disgusting


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Old 07-03-2013, 09:01   #40
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Justice has many forms. Some of them relate to law.


Yes, you heard that from me. No, I won't go further.
Justice and law are not always one and the same justice as legal and moral can be mutually exclusive.

The assumption is because something is legal it is moral. I have said many times that what might be legal is not necessarily moral/ethical. Illegal also does not mean immoral/unethical.

What I find interesting, maybe not directly from you Sam, is that people who claim law and order means moral, when the situation fits change their minds.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:02   #41
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These WBC people are disgusting
Yes, I agree.

But not illegal.

The problem I am seeing is that people are upset that the "bad guys" are using the laws to benefit them. The laws are only supposed to benefit the "good guys".

(Good and bad can simply be a point of view)
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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:07   #42
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Their actions are nothing more then extortion. And they get away with it because they call themselves a church. The day will come when they push the wrong people too far. Emotions run high at funerals and rationality goes out the window.

Some WBC people will die. I will not be saddened.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:13   #43
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Because in reality they are a family of scumbag lawyers that use their church as a cover to bait people into retaliating against them so they can file lawsuits. It's how they make their living.
I'm well aware.

I repeat, what makes their church any more or less legitimate than any other church? They peddle hate, but so have many others over the years. What gives you the right to decide that "in reality" they're not a church? They claim to believe in the same God as everyone else. They have exactly as much evidence as everyone else.

From a moral perspective I absolutely agree with you... but from a logic perspective there's no reason why they shouldn't be considered just as much of a church as everyone else who claims to be a church. The real, logical answer is to end tax-exempt status for churches, then this wouldn't matter.

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Old 07-03-2013, 09:21   #44
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Yes, I agree.

But not illegal.

The problem I am seeing is that people are upset that the "bad guys" are using the laws to benefit them. The laws are only supposed to benefit the "good guys".

(Good and bad can simply be a point of view)
I am upset but I also understand that they are within their legal rights. They seem to target law abiding people since they know they won't retaliate. But like the poster above said, one day they will cross the wrong person's path and who knows what that person will do when they flip out.

Btw, I had heard a while back something about the Anonymous organization threatening to release the names and addresses of WBC members if they picketed some of these events.


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Old 07-03-2013, 10:36   #45
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What I find interesting, maybe not directly from you Sam, is that people who claim law and order means moral, when the situation fits change their minds.
Morality requires an appeal to a higher authority. Any person who says that he establishes his own morality is, at best, misled. You can't give birth to yourself.

For many people in society, it's simple to make civil law the benchmark for their morality. This usually works, insofar as the society is one that started with a moral foundation. But it's thinking along the path of least resistance. Specifics come up now and then where people are forced to really examine things and they may change their minds as you say. Complicating the analysis are people who just don't have the foundation to go with the hard right. They change their minds simply because they're weak.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:42   #46
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And when anyone associated with that scum church's home is on fire the firemen just stand with picket signs and watch it burn and not try to put it out
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:23   #47
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Why are they still considered a church? I will keep my thoughts to myself on this one.
Given the gay support present in the current administration and the anti-gay stance of this group, I am surprised the IRS has not audited them with a view to determining if the group legitimately should be tax exempt. Since it is basically an extended family, the group might have been treating personal expenditures as tax exempt or as donations to the church.

They don't know a thing about hell until they have been put through a detailed IRS audit looking for evidence of tax fraud.

Hey, NSA! Did you catch that?
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:33   #48
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Morality requires an appeal to a higher authority. Any person who says that he establishes his own morality is, at best, misled. You can't give birth to yourself.
What does "you can't give birth to yourself" have anything to do with anything? Without appeal to a higher authority, we can establish basic moral principles such as "murder is wrong" through simple application of the Golden Rule. The details are more complicated, and this is true whether your morals come out of a book of fables or through analysis without asking a higher power.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:44   #49
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What does "you can't give birth to yourself" have anything to do with anything? Without appeal to a higher authority, we can establish basic moral principles such as "murder is wrong" through simple application of the Golden Rule. The details are more complicated, and this is true whether your morals come out of a book of fables or through analysis without asking a higher power.
I took it that even the book of fables is a "higher authority"

Higher authority doesn't have to mean a deity.

As an example in this case, I think what they do is disgusting BUT, I appeal to a higher authority that it not a deity but a principle of free speech. It is disgusting speech, but they have every bit as much of a right to be disgusting as gay people have to put on a gay pride parade.

The difference is many people have relative morals and say "if in situation X then Y is OK but if in situation Z then Y is not OK". Now, I am not saying I dont have situation morals (for example killing someone in self defense is situational morals), but I do want to hope that I remain as consistent to my beliefs as possible.

This means I believe they have the right to protest the firefighters. That doesnt mean I agree with their actions; I only believe they have the right to do it.
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Old 07-03-2013, 14:35   #50
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What does "you can't give birth to yourself" have anything to do with anything? Without appeal to a higher authority, we can establish basic moral principles such as "murder is wrong" through simple application of the Golden Rule. The details are more complicated, and this is true whether your morals come out of a book of fables or through analysis without asking a higher power.
Dana gets it (my point).

Morality is an external thing; you don't really invent your own. If you were to do so, it would be subject only to its creator's own whim, which devolves quickly into "what benefits me is good". Even in your examples, you give authority to a book of fables or similar.

On another angle, "murder is wrong". Oh, yeah? Sez you. (Bang) Now what are you going to do? You're dead, I've got your wallet, your clan's appeal to the law is exactly an appeal to higher authority, and should they choose to deal with things themselves, they're no different than I was when I pulled the trigger.
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