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Old 09-06-2013, 14:21   #76
steveksux
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
I am saying that in this case the fifth amendment does not apply.
First because he chose to answer the question. Second, because unless answering would be self incrimination of criminal activity then the fifth amendment does not apply.

You can simply refuse to answer. But if the answer would not incriminate you then you cannot claim fifth amendment protection.
Does Miranda even come into play prior to being arrested anyway?

I can see some leeway if the officer acting as a security guard did not identify himself as a peace officer when the refusal occurred. Unfortunately leeway seems to be in short supply when someone acts like an idiot. If your attitude makes it worth a LEOS while to give you a hard time, they are often happy to oblige you... Enjoy the ride! Once he knew he was dealing with a cop, he should have showed his permit instead of his ass, and he'd be in a much better situation today.

I'm not inclined to wade through dozens of pages to find out if he knew at the time though...

ETA: Read the article, officer in full uniform, though off duty. No reason to suspect he's just a guard, no reason to suppose he doesn't have to show the permit. Anyone have a picture of the look on his face when cop answered "You are now" when he asked "Am I being detained?"

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Last edited by steveksux; 09-06-2013 at 15:04..
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Old 09-06-2013, 14:24   #77
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
I am saying that in this case the fifth amendment does not apply.
First because he chose to answer the question. Second, because unless answering would be self incrimination of criminal activity then the fifth amendment does not apply.

You can simply refuse to answer. But if the answer would not incriminate you then you cannot claim fifth amendment protection.
So anyone using the fifth IS a criminal.
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Old 09-06-2013, 15:06   #78
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So anyone using the fifth IS a criminal.
How'd you get that?

"No person...shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."

In this matter, how could there have been a criminal case if he produced his permit? In general, no, not everyone who wishes to use the 5th Amendment protections is a criminal. But they do need to be involved in a criminal case. Try pleading the 5th in a civil suit and see how far it gets you.
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Old 09-06-2013, 15:19   #79
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
How'd you get that?
This is how I get there.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Second, because unless answering would be self incrimination of criminal activity then the fifth amendment does not apply.
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
In this matter, how could there have been a criminal case if he produced his permit?
But if he doesn't know the law like everyone on GT or doesn't have the permit on him, then not answering and not providing any additional evidence against himself is the is the best thing for him to do.

So is that the "never talk to a cop" comment I have heard in difference communities or the fifth.
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Old 09-06-2013, 15:29   #80
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This is how I get there.





But if he doesn't know the law like everyone on GT or doesn't have the permit on him, then not answering and not providing any additional evidence against himself is the is the best thing for him to do.

So is that the "never talk to a cop" comment I have heard in difference communities or the fifth.


Yah, not telling the cop he is "permitted" but doesn't have the permit on him, moves it up do a different level of violation.

That sounds like a bright move. Go from not having the permit on him to carrying without a permit. Always a good idea to increase the charges on yourself. Judges like that
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Old 09-06-2013, 15:36   #81
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... What is keeping you and others from understanding that?

I will give it a try. Because sometimes they way we wish things were can become more important than how things really are.
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Old 09-06-2013, 15:39   #82
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But if he doesn't know the law like everyone on GT or doesn't have the permit on him, then not answering and not providing any additional evidence against himself is the is the best thing for him to do.

So is that the "never talk to a cop" comment I have heard in difference communities or the fifth.
Then shame on him for not knowing his situation.

I don't follow your second paragraph.
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Old 09-06-2013, 16:43   #83
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Then shame on him for not knowing his situation.

I don't follow your second paragraph.
Sometimes stupid happens. What do you do when it happens to you? For me, I try to mitigate the situation.


As far as the second paragraph, I spend way too much time on the internet. There have been many times when the criminal basically hung themselves by trying to talk their way out of the situation. You may also want to read about the gaming theory "Prisoner's dilemma".
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Old 09-06-2013, 17:53   #84
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Chicken and the egg aurguement - the Officer didn't have to nor need to ASK!! Why ask if the act is legal? Your just proving beyond a doupt the officer has a chip on his shoulder about OC - I'd bet money on it! So if the officer just stopped people driving out in the parking lot to see if they have a DL you'd be just fine with that right too!
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Old 09-06-2013, 18:01   #85
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TBO
Chicken and the egg aurguement - the Officer didn't have to nor need to ASK!! Why ask if the act is legal? Your just proving beyond a doupt the officer has a chip on his shoulder about OC - I'd bet money on it! So if the officer just stopped people driving out in the parking lot to see if they have a DL you'd be just fine with that right too!
Hunting is legal, and so is carrying a rifle if the woods around here, but if a Game Officer asks, you had better have your license.
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Old 09-06-2013, 18:32   #86
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TBO
Chicken and the egg aurguement - the Officer didn't have to nor need to ASK!! Why ask if the act is legal? Your just proving beyond a doupt the officer has a chip on his shoulder about OC - I'd bet money on it! So if the officer just stopped people driving out in the parking lot to see if they have a DL you'd be just fine with that right too!
So despite the evidence that it was the OCer that displayed an attitude you are firmly convinced it was the officer that had the attitude.

And you cannot quite fathom why someone employed to provide security would check out someone walking into the store openly carrying a firearm?

Seriously?
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Old 09-06-2013, 18:53   #87
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TBO
Chicken and the egg aurguement - the Officer didn't have to nor need to ASK!! Why ask if the act is legal? Your just proving beyond a doupt the officer has a chip on his shoulder about OC - I'd bet money on it! So if the officer just stopped people driving out in the parking lot to see if they have a DL you'd be just fine with that right too!
It depends. Does the employer at his private job have a rule that anyone driving on their parking lot has to have a driver's license? It is their right to set such a rule.
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Old 09-06-2013, 21:21   #88
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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
TBO
Chicken and the egg aurguement - the Officer didn't have to nor need to ASK!! Why ask if the act is legal? Your just proving beyond a doupt the officer has a chip on his shoulder about OC - I'd bet money on it! So if the officer just stopped people driving out in the parking lot to see if they have a DL you'd be just fine with that right too!
It isn't legal to open carry in Iowa. It is legal too open carry WITH a permit AND with the stipulation that you show it to the police on demand.

As with asking to see your CCW if a police oofficer notices a concealed weapon, those who actually have a permit are only a small minority of citizens, so there is a good argument that seeing a weapon being carried in a way that is illegal for the large majority of people is at least reasonable suspicion for investigation.

If the police see a guy climbing in the wiindow of a house, climbing in a window isn't illegal and there are people who have every right to climb in the window of that house. However, you can bet there is enough suspicion for them to stop and find out if the guy lives there.

I don't think you people willl ever understand the cooncept of "reasonable suspicion." Even most LE officers I train, think it is a much higher standard than iit really is.
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Last edited by Bren; 09-06-2013 at 21:23..
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Old 09-06-2013, 22:12   #89
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It isn't legal to open carry in Iowa. It is legal too open carry WITH a permit AND with the stipulation that you show it to the police on demand.

As with asking to see your CCW if a police oofficer notices a concealed weapon, those who actually have a permit are only a small minority of citizens, so there is a good argument that seeing a weapon being carried in a way that is illegal for the large majority of people is at least reasonable suspicion for investigation.

If the police see a guy climbing in the wiindow of a house, climbing in a window isn't illegal and there are people who have every right to climb in the window of that house. However, you can bet there is enough suspicion for them to stop and find out if the guy lives there.

I don't think you people willl ever understand the cooncept of "reasonable suspicion." Even most LE officers I train, think it is a much higher standard than iit really is.
That part of your statement is incorrect. It is legal to open carry here without a permit, but the list of places you can't go makes it just about useless without a carry permit.
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Old 09-07-2013, 04:05   #90
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So anyone using the fifth IS a criminal.
Technically, yes. The 5th amendment doesn't protect you from being forced to make non-incriminating statements. That is a reason people are sometimes given immunity in return for testifying against others - once you have immunity, nothing is incriminating and you can't refuse to answer, without legal penalties.
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Old 09-07-2013, 04:09   #91
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That part of your statement is incorrect. It is legal to open carry here without a permit, but the list of places you can't go makes it just about useless without a carry permit.
OK, "it isn't legal to open carrry within the city limits in Iowa, like this guy."
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Old 09-07-2013, 05:04   #92
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It isn't legal to open carry in Iowa.
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Originally Posted by clarson_75 View Post
That part of your statement is incorrect. It is legal to open carry here without a permit, but the list of places you can't go makes it just about useless without a carry permit.
Bren modified his comment, but for those perhaps confused...

The law is silent on open carry in general:
Quote:
724.4 1. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the person...commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
The aggravated misdemeanor is carrying concealed.

The law continues and makes carry within the limits of any city, "whether concealed or not," "or not" meaning open carrying, and carry in a vehicle aggravated misdemeanors unless the person possesses and displays a permit within the city limit, or meets specific transport conditions within a vehicle.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:45   #93
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I apologize Bren. I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. Just trying to be accurate about what the law actually says.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:34   #94
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But if he doesn't know the law
If he doesn't know the law about carrying a firearm, and carries a firearm, his a.. deserves to get thrown in jail. If you can't be responsible enough to know the laws about carrying a firearm, then you can't be responsible enough to be trusted to carry one.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:36   #95
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So if the officer just stopped people driving out in the parking lot to see if they have a DL you'd be just fine with that right too!
That depends on if the property owner asked the cop to do so. Cops don't have jurisdiction in the majority of parking lots because the majority of parking lots are owned by the private business whose customers park there. Get into a wreck in a parking lot and call the cops, a lot of the time they'll tell you they don't have jurisdiction because it's private property.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:37   #96
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That depends on if the property owner asked the cop to do so. Cops don't have jurisdiction in the majority of parking lots because the majority of parking lots are owned by the private business whose customers park there. Get into a wreck in a parking lot and call the cops, a lot of the time they'll tell you they don't have jurisdiction because it's private property.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Civ...s_Criminal_Law
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:39   #97
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That depends on if the property owner asked the cop to do so. Cops don't have jurisdiction in the majority of parking lots because the majority of parking lots are owned by the private business whose customers park there. Get into a wreck in a parking lot and call the cops, a lot of the time they'll tell you they don't have jurisdiction because it's private property.
That's not quite it.

Cops do have jurisdiction there, but the traffic statutes they enforce may not apply there.

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:43   #98
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DT


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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:56   #99
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Here in VT all non-criminals age 16 and above can CCW or OC a handgun.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:10   #100
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I didn't know that many states require a CCW permit to OC.
What you don't know can hurt you.....

And you felt obligated to call in question the police action without knowing the law this speaks volumes.


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