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Old 02-14-2014, 20:52   #126
Teecher45
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Shooting IDPA every weekend, I see a lot of FTF with Glocks. Some are modified, so all bets are off, but many are stock guns. The newer Gen4 seem quite prone to malfunctions unless everything is just right. When I go to a training class, I am one of the few still toting a 1911 & get all kinds of crap about the malfunctions that certainly will occur, yet I can make it thru 300-400rds in a day class w/o a single stoppage. So yes, everyone's exp is diff, that is mine. My current ccw other than my XD45c is a 1911PD. In more than 1500rds, it's never baubled, not once.
"Unless everything is just right", in my experience that's more fitting (pun intended) for the 1911 platform than the Glock.
I'm with oldarcher on this one. Had a few 1911's. Couldn't find a reason to keep any of them. Couldn't find one single thing any of them did better than my G21, 30, or 36.
I was a firearms instructor for 15 years for the KY DOJ, was on the range through every kind of weather imaginable, except lightening. Saw KSP and KY P&P with G35's, 22's, 23's, and 27's. Local PO's with 22's, and 17's, and local jailers with 35's.
Never saw a malfunction. Not once. Not even ammo related.
That was enough for me, my friends, and my family.
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Old 02-14-2014, 21:11   #127
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There are even instances where insurgents have absorbed 7.62x51 and continued fighting. Determination aside, drugs do incredible things to the human body not to mention heroin is one of the most powerful pain relievers in the world.
Very true.

If you look at http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpo...r=0&Weight=All you can see calibers and specific cartridges documented one-shot stopping statistics. The chart does not have some modern cartridges on it; I'd be interested in seeing the statics on other cartridges. On the "One Shot Stop" chart the 45 ACP is rated at 96% (173 shootings), 40 S&W at 94% (146 shootings), the 9mm at 91% (189 shootings), and the 10mm is at 88% (20 shootings), with the 308 (112 shootings) at the top of the chart at 98%. I think the chart is dated but it is interesting.

If you run a 40 cal bullet at 150-200 feet faster you have a 10mm but the chart shows a 6% less effectiveness rating...I don't believe this would be the case with current high quality ammunition. In ballistic gelatin on You Tube people have shown the you can rin a 40 cal Speer Gold Dot at 40 cal velocities and it can open to >.7 inch but it you run it over 1420 FPS it expands it >1 inch and travels 12-14 inches before it halts. Using the Berger Ballistic Calculator with a muzzle velocity at 15oo it maintains >1420 FPS until it reaches 33 yards then it behaves like a 40 S&W expansions. I would expect that a 1 inch slug penetrating 12-14 inches into a human, if well placed, should be a significant attention getter. Do you agree?

Disclaimer: I had eye surgery today. The right one has a bulky dressing over it making it impossible to use my reading glasses for the left eye. I read and reread this post and corrected a couple of my bad key strokes. If something looks wildly wrong to you just know that a temporarily visually impaired guy who is still tired from general anesthesia is the probably the cause.

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Old 02-14-2014, 21:23   #128
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Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
"Unless everything is just right", in my experience that's more fitting (pun intended) for the 1911 platform than the Glock.
I'm with oldarcher on this one. Had a few 1911's. Couldn't find a reason to keep any of them. Couldn't find one single thing any of them did better than my G21, 30, or 36.
I was a firearms instructor for 15 years for the KY DOJ, was on the range through every kind of weather imaginable, except lightening. Saw KSP and KY P&P with G35's, 22's, 23's, and 27's. Local PO's with 22's, and 17's, and local jailers with 35's.
Never saw a malfunction. Not once. Not even ammo related.
That was enough for me, my friends, and my family.




With a superb resume like that you should be Moderator of the General Glocking Forum and straighten out some of those knuckleheads. You have my vote.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:54   #129
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People can talk down on gelatin testing all they want to, but realistically it gives you a great idea on how a bullet can perform in tissue. Not only that but it is a true form of comparison, something that couldnt even be done in live bodies.

Here are some of my own gelatin tests I performed which will give you a good idea of how the 9mm and .45 compare. In this test, the .45ACP had the advantage being that it was fired from a 5 inch 1911 barrel compared to the 4 inch barrel of the Glock 19. In the JHP test, Gold Dots were used (230 and 124 grain), and with FMJ I used 230 grain and 124 grain. I will let you decide for yourself which is the better choice.

This picture shows a single 9mm and .45 entering from the right. Both passed completely through. Both are FMJs.
Caliber Corner

This picture shows a single 9mm fired from the left, and a single .45 fired from the right. Both are JHPs.

Caliber Corner

I like gelatin test, and your photo certainly does make the difference appear small. Good post.

However, a still photo doesn't show temporary disruption.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:57   #130
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I operate a SIG SP2022 in .40 For a SD round, I use Hornady Critical Defense 135 grain HP. I've operated a Taurus Millennium Pro in .45, used 230 grain JHP.....a Ruger 95 DC, loaded 147 grain JHP. A Glock 23, again with Hornady Critical Defense 135 grain HP. A Springfield XD in .40, with (again) Hornady. I find the SIG the most comfortable weapon I have ever operated. Recoil is manageable, I have 12+1 to rely on, and carry a spare mag. (Guess you can tell I'm pretty much a .40 fan.) LOL. If I get into more trouble than 24 rounds can get me out of, I'm pretty much screwed, anyway. Carry what works for you.
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Old 02-15-2014, 13:00   #131
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I just saw this thread. I didn't see the main factor for me until page 4 - frame size. I don't have large hands, so the larger framed 45 ACP guns don't work as well for me. Someone mentioned 45GAP, but I keep reading on these forums that the GAP is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist

I will grant that if you live in a state that severely limits capacity then there's no reason not to go with the largest caliber that you can handle. As someone who is not capacity-limited, I have a hard time choosing a larger caliber with less capacity, even if the larger caliber is substantially more effective (it's not). If 4 guys decide to back you into a corner, are you really more comfortable with 7+1 vs say 12+1 out of a smaller gun?

I suppose by posting this I'm taking the bait. I don't mean to rag on those that choose 45 ACP. I just get a bit bent out of shape when they claim that they're "the best tool for the job." Every caliber has advantages over every other caliber if you change the parameters, things like hand size, necessity to conceal, living in ban states, and many, MANY more parameters. A legitimate case can even be made for the lowly 22LR, IMO, even though I would never EVER carry one myself unless I absolutely had to for some strange reason. Everyone has different needs, so IMO anyone who claims to have the "best" is fooling themselves. Best for themselves? Perhaps. But good luck convincing other people who aren't limited by capacity, or people who have smaller hands, or whatever. It sure is fun to argue about over the internet, though, huh
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Old 02-15-2014, 13:08   #132
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I just saw this thread. I didn't see the main factor for me until page 4 - frame size. I don't have large hands, so the larger framed 45 ACP guns don't work as well for me. Someone mentioned 45GAP, but I keep reading on these forums that the GAP is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist

I will grant that if you live in a state that severely limits capacity then there's no reason not to go with the largest caliber that you can handle. As someone who is not capacity-limited, I have a hard time choosing a larger caliber with less capacity, even if the larger caliber is substantially more effective (it's not). If 4 guys decide to back you into a corner, are you really more comfortable with 7+1 vs say 12+1 out of a smaller gun?

I suppose by posting this I'm taking the bait. I don't mean to rag on those that choose 45 ACP. I just get a bit bent out of shape when they claim that they're "the best tool for the job." Every caliber has advantages over every other caliber if you change the parameters, things like hand size, necessity to conceal, living in ban states, and many, MANY more parameters. A legitimate case can even be made for the lowly 22LR, IMO, even though I would never EVER carry one myself unless I absolutely had to for some strange reason. Everyone has different needs, so IMO anyone who claims to have the "best" is fooling themselves. Best for themselves? Perhaps. But good luck convincing other people who aren't limited by capacity, or people who have smaller hands, or whatever. It sure is fun to argue about over the internet, though, huh
45 GAP is a 45 bullet shot from a 9mm/40 size pistol.
The Glock 39 uses the same frame as the 26/27
Glock 38 uses the 19/23 frame

Here is my write up on my newly acquired Glock 39:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1519749
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Old 02-15-2014, 15:04   #133
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To the Jurors on M Dunn's case in FL, caliber doesn't mean much at this point. Or to Mr. Dunn, for that matter.


They're on the 4th day of deliberation.
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Old 02-15-2014, 15:45   #134
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First off, let it be known that I love caliber war threads. However... this one really cracked me up? Why? Well, the OP states that he has resolved to stick with .45 for his carry caliber. Can't argue with that.

What's funny, though, is that the article he links to that he states he is using as his justification for his decision makes no sense at all. The officer in the account was using .45acp. He shot the bad guy 14 times, 3 of those in the head, and the guy still didn't die right away. So, what did the cop do? Well, he now carries three times as much ammo- in 9mm! (as well as making sure to have a .223 rifle handy inside his squad car).
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Old 02-15-2014, 17:26   #135
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45 GAP is a 45 bullet shot from a 9mm/40 size pistol.
The Glock 39 uses the same frame as the 26/27
Glock 38 uses the 19/23 frame

Here is my write up on my newly acquired Glock 39:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1519749
I'm agreeing with you on this point. 45 GAP is probably the only 45 caliber I would own, due to the smaller frame size. I do have concerns about the cost of ammo and whether or not the cartridge will be around in, say, 15 years. There are plenty of gun-geeks posting on THIS SITE who would love to see the GAP disappear since they don't personally benefit from a smaller framed gun, and I don't understand that at all. If you're one of those people I have to ask, do you really think the 45 ACP is going away any time soon? 45 ACP and 9mm will be around until the end of time. So why would you not want others to have options? I don't get it.

Having said all that, even if ammo cost and future availability wasn't an issue, I still see an extra 3 or 4 rounds of 40S&W or 9mm as more than tipping the scales in favor of the G27/26. That's just me though, and who knows, my preference might change next month. I'd prefer to have as many options as possible in order to fit the widest variety of shooters. It's just like the .380 - I probably wouldn't carry one, but if that option lets my wife (or others) carry more confidently then I can't see how that's anything but a good thing.
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Old 02-15-2014, 21:02   #136
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Great videos. Worth pointing out that w/ Speer Gold Dot, the 9mm wins. (I didn't watch all of them so I don't know if 9mm won w/ any other JHP's. I use 9mm Speer Gold Dot so I was curious, then pleasantly surprised by the result.)

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Old 02-15-2014, 21:24   #137
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Not sure if anyone has posted this yet or not, but it kinda makes me laugh. The 9mm video is better though.

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Old 02-16-2014, 00:41   #138
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:17   #139
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I operate a SIG SP2022 in .40 For a SD round, I use Hornady Critical Defense 135 grain HP. I've operated a Taurus Millennium Pro in .45, used 230 grain JHP.....a Ruger 95 DC, loaded 147 grain JHP. A Glock 23, again with Hornady Critical Defense 135 grain HP. A Springfield XD in .40, with (again) Hornady. I find the SIG the most comfortable weapon I have ever operated. Recoil is manageable, I have 12+1 to rely on, and carry a spare mag. (Guess you can tell I'm pretty much a .40 fan.) LOL. If I get into more trouble than 24 rounds can get me out of, I'm pretty much screwed, anyway. Carry what works for you.
Only Critical Defense round in .40 is 165gr. There is no such thing as 135gr Critical Defense.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:50   #140
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"Unless everything is just right", in my experience that's more fitting (pun intended) for the 1911 platform than the Glock.
I'm with oldarcher on this one. Had a few 1911's. Couldn't find a reason to keep any of them. Couldn't find one single thing any of them did better than my G21, 30, or 36.
I was a firearms instructor for 15 years for the KY DOJ, was on the range through every kind of weather imaginable, except lightening. Saw KSP and KY P&P with G35's, 22's, 23's, and 27's. Local PO's with 22's, and 17's, and local jailers with 35's.
Never saw a malfunction. Not once. Not even ammo related.
That was enough for me, my friends, and my family.
Odds are, we'd know each other if we met in the real world. Likewise, the reliability of Glock on police ranges is enough to sell me. My brother and another trooper tried to destroy a G35 when they were testing them - took a big box of loaded magazines and traded out firing it as fast as they could through thousands of rounds until the recoil spring guide rod melted and started to curl. When they ran out of ammo and the gun cooled down, their firearms guy put it back in his holster and continued to carry it.

I recall one personally owned Glock having a kaboom on the P&P range, but it was clearly an ammo issue and the same brand of reloads blew up a revolver the same day. The Glock was functional after the kaboom - the revolver was not.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:04   #141
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.
Never saw a malfunction. Not once. Not even ammo related.
That was enough for me, my friends, and my family.
Amazing two people can have such drasticly diff experiences. I see enough GLock FTF every year to know they are not, like any piece of machinery, flawless. Certainly closer than some other designs, but not 100%. It leads to foolish practices like carrying only the gun & no spare mag. STill trying to sort out why I see so many limp wrist malfunctions in GLock guns. I know it's the shooter, but why does the gun cooperate so willinginly.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:02   #142
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My brother and another trooper tried to destroy a G35 when they were testing them - took a big box of loaded magazines and traded out firing it as fast as they could through thousands of rounds until the recoil spring guide rod melted and started to curl. When they ran out of ammo and the gun cooled down, their firearms guy put it back in his holster and continued to carry it.
So after he melted the guide rod, and the gun being filthy from "thousands" of rounds" fired through it, he put the gun back in his holster and carried it? If so, what was the point?

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I recall one personally owned Glock having a kaboom on the P&P range, but it was clearly an ammo issue and the same brand of reloads blew up a revolver the same day. The Glock was functional after the kaboom - the revolver was not.
Wasn't a kaboom if the Glock was undamaged and functional afterward. Near kaboom, maybe...
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Old 02-16-2014, 14:11   #143
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...STill trying to sort out why I see so many limp wrist malfunctions in GLock guns. I know it's the shooter, but why does the gun cooperate so willinginly.



Many shooting events attract "tinkerers" & "Tacticool" commandos who like to monkey with connectors, triggers, etc. LE doesn't have this problem. As well, in LE they can address the issue at hand and correct it on the range (usually), whereas you cannot with others at an event. You cannot walk up to a shooter and say "hey knucklehead, WTH are you doing?"


Why so many people limpwristing Glocks? Easy: they break their wrists upon ignition. Metal guns are more forgiving of this, polymer not so much.
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Old 02-16-2014, 15:27   #144
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... "tinkerers" & "Tacticool" commandos who like to monkey with connectors, triggers, etc. LE doesn't have this problem.
Not as a normal procedure, but we still have to be alert to unauthorized "modifications" and "improvements", don't we?

Still one of the things armorers are reminded to look for during inspections.


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... As well, in LE they can address the issue at hand and correct it on the range (usually), whereas you cannot with others at an event. You cannot walk up to a shooter and say "hey knucklehead, WTH are you doing?"
Yep. If they listen and remember once they leave the range, and then remember for the next qual session.


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Why so many people limpwristing Glocks? Easy: they break their wrists upon ignition. Metal guns are more forgiving of this, polymer not so much.
Too simple for many enthusiasts and aficionados to be willing to accept.

In the growing collection of factory armorer manuals out at my bench, the significant number of them list shooter grip technique issues as being a probable cause of a range of stoppages and functioning issues ... and this includes for metal-framed pistols.

The wheel's still round ... and still seems to work best in that config.
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Old 02-16-2014, 16:35   #145
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So after he melted the guide rod, and the gun being filthy from "thousands" of rounds" fired through it, he put the gun back in his holster and carried it? If so, what was the point?



Wasn't a kaboom if the Glock was undamaged and functional afterward. Near kaboom, maybe...
I don't mean he didn't clean it, I mean it continued to be his duty weapon.

As for the kaboom, it blew the magazine out of the gun - can't remember if there was also frame danger. I didn't realize there was a minimum damage standard for a kaboom


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Old 02-16-2014, 23:21   #146
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I like my 25 year-old Glock 9mm just fine, and you can see what kind of load I carry.

A hndgun of any caliber, is what you use to fight your way to your shotgun

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Old 02-17-2014, 06:04   #147
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I like my 25 year-old Glock 9mm just fine

A hndgun of any caliber, is what you use to fight your way to your shotgun
Not a 45???

Show & tell? !!!

Okay... I bought this one new and I like my ~23 year old Glock 9mm just fine too; but, I'm carrying a 45.

I'm not going to have a shotgun handy when loading groceries into my vehicle, or just walking through a _____; will have to hope the 45 I have available is sufficient to incapacitate an attacker.
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:38   #148
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Entertaining!

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Old 02-17-2014, 06:55   #149
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A caliber war thread concurrent with a Glock love/hate thread.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:49   #150
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I would like to see the old 9BLE load fired into one of those clear ballistic gel blocks, slow motion as they did above.

Carry what you are most comfortable with!

For me, it will soon be .45 ACP off duty, most likely with a 230 grain +P bullet. But that could change.
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