GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2005, 15:29   #1
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth

http://www.rrmemphis.com/myth.pdf
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.

Last edited by RMTactical; 12-27-2012 at 18:23..
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 15:31   #2
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


What stands out to me is that 10% of these guys were killed with their own weapon... :(
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 16:09   #3
turbonatr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: N.E., PA
Posts: 8,372
Send a message via AIM to turbonatr
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15


Quote:
In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras.
Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!
__________________
P.A. Glocker Charter Member #48
Pennsylvania Constitution Article I, Section 21
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of
themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
turbonatr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 16:17   #4
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15




Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!
No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 16:21   #5
turbonatr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: N.E., PA
Posts: 8,372
Send a message via AIM to turbonatr
Excellent read, GoreLicks. Thanks!
__________________
P.A. Glocker Charter Member #48
Pennsylvania Constitution Article I, Section 21
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of
themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
turbonatr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 17:04   #6
oldgranpa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 923
Really Scary!!

And here I was hoping someday to see a "two-shot-stop" rating of different calibers. It's becoming obvious that would be no more effective than a "one-shot-stop" rating, whatever that is.

I guess for us civilians with our little 9mm pocket guns the best rule is still rule 3.....run away if you can!

Changes what I think about my .45 home defense pistol too.

Whatever!

og
oldgranpa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 17:17   #7
turbonatr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: N.E., PA
Posts: 8,372
Send a message via AIM to turbonatr
I really understand that everyone out there wants to make the best possible choice they can about their carry choices, etc., but what it really boils down to is training. Worry more about putting those bullets where they need to be as accurately and as quickly as possible. 9mm, .357, .40, 10mm, .45acp...it's all the same. Pick a premium JHP of sufficient weight, functions 100% in your particular gun and get to the range!!
__________________
P.A. Glocker Charter Member #48
Pennsylvania Constitution Article I, Section 21
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of
themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
turbonatr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 18:55   #8
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
I really understand that everyone out there wants to make the best possible choice they can about their carry choices, etc., but what it really boils down to is training. Worry more about putting those bullets where they need to be as accurately and as quickly as possible. 9mm, .357, .40, 10mm, .45acp...it's all the same. Pick a premium JHP of sufficient weight, functions 100% in your particular gun and get to the range!!
Exactly.

Shoot, and shoot often. Secret Service agents qualify everyday when they go into work. Being proficient with your weapon is what will make the difference. Aiming at the COM, not just the whole body as a target.
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 19:38   #9
Rollo Tamasey
Senior Member
 
Rollo Tamasey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Orlando Florida
Posts: 515
Send a message via AIM to Rollo Tamasey Send a message via Yahoo to Rollo Tamasey
Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

I know maybe even this would not garentee a stop even if it hit the BG directly but it woulkd be about the biggest cartridge that most people could handle.

After reading your post I can see why that dirty harry guy in the movie always wanted the biggest revolver of his day.
Rollo Tamasey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 19:44   #10
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by Rollo Tamasey
I know maybe even this would not garentee a stop even if it hit the BG directly but it woulkd be about the biggest cartridge that most people could handle.

After reading your post I can see why that dirty harry guy in the movie always wanted the biggest revolver of his day.
I think you missed the point. Well placed shots, at a rapid pace with a decent caliber seems like your best bet.
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 19:57   #11
gary newport
Senior Member
 
gary newport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: People's Republic of California
Posts: 12,273
Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo

Quote:
Originally posted by GoreLicks
I think you missed the point. Well placed shots, at a rapid pace with a decent caliber seems like your best bet.
You nailed it! ;c
__________________
A forum with WalterGa is a more informative, funnier, and more interesting place.

G17, G17RTF2, G19, G21, G21SF (2), G26, G30, G30SF, G34 (2), G37 (2), G38, G39
gary newport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2005, 21:57   #12
sneakyracer
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 827
"These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.
"

exactly why i think QK and point shooting training is paramount
sneakyracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 03:12   #13
Tommy Vercetti
Senior Member
 
Tommy Vercetti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Posts: 2,210
Thank God "Extreme Shock" has so fortuitously come along with their "explosive fang face anti-terrorist" rounds to help these officers out. Now all they need is a white kydex homemade holster to fit their new single shot .32's. Shame on you for debunking the one shot myth without even considering the fact one can apparently now hunt wild boar with this round. Finally a good large game .32 round. ~`c
Tommy Vercetti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2005, 06:14   #14
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 23,741
Quote:
Originally posted by GoreLicks
Exactly.

... Secret Service agents qualify everyday when they go into work.....
And just where do you get that information from?

It's been a few years since I worked with them, but they did not qualify everyday. IIRC they had quartely qualifications (with the counter assualt team having monthly qualifications with 4 guns, handgun, AR, MP5, and shotgun). Like any federal police agency they had some gun guys that shot a lot but most were not gun guys and only fired at qualification time.

The presidential protective division and counter assualt guys did practice a lot more than most. But they still did not practice daily. They just didn't have a range available to do so, or enough time in the day to drive to the range, qualify, then work a full shift.
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius

Last edited by vafish; 06-11-2005 at 06:27..
vafish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2005, 06:25   #15
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 23,741
Quote:
Originally posted by sneakyracer
"These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.
"

exactly why i think QK and point shooting training is paramount
It's also why movement and cover are important.

The problem is that most of us are forced to practice on a square range standing perfectly still in a little shooting booth.

The article does a good job of pointing out the problems with most LE firearms "Training". (I say training in quotes because many departments consider their semi-annual qualification as their firearms training)
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius
vafish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2005, 10:18   #16
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


Quote:
Originally posted by vafish
And just where do you get that information from?
An agent. But he could be wrong, I guess. Or maybe I misunderstood him. It was a while ago since I spoke with him.
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2005, 18:42   #17
ColSanders
Extra Crispy
 
ColSanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 412
Great link, thanks!
ColSanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2005, 07:26   #18
CougarRed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 577
These agents clearly should have been using Federal 115 +p+ 9mm (9PBLE). It's much better than those 45s, percentage-wise.

;a
__________________
"You ask for miracles, I give you the F.B.I."
CougarRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2005, 09:13   #19
sneakyracer
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 827
Quote:
Originally posted by vafish
It's also why movement and cover are important.

The problem is that most of us are forced to practice on a square range standing perfectly still in a little shooting booth.

Yep, and in my range they dont allow rapid fire. So its very hard to practice "quick on the trigger" . While bad guys do whatever they want.

Its all BULL, they should allow rapid fire. At least to competent individuals with competency determined by an instructor. I can deal with being restricted to certain area of the range for example.

I understand the reason not allowing rapid fire, there are a lot of boneheads that go to the range so the range has to factor in for the lowest denominator so to speak.
sneakyracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2005, 11:11   #20
jng1226
Member
 
jng1226's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by sneakyracer
Yep, and in my range they dont allow rapid fire.
The range closest to my house is the same way. I drive another 20 minutes out of the way to go to a range that does allow rapid fire just for this reason.

If at all possible, you should find IDPA matches near you and participate as much as possible. If your local matches are run well, you will not only get to practice rapid-fire while drawing from your actual carry rig, you will also be forced to shoot from awkward positions, on the move, etc. - definitely NOT a static/cramped booth/one-direction-of-fire experience. The "stress" of competition and a squad of other shooters watching you will also elevate your training closer (even if just a little bit) to the real thing. Lastly, it is just plain fun!

Jeff
jng1226 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2005, 13:39   #21
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


The Myth of "One Shot Stop" Percentages

http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/defammo.htm
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2005, 20:39   #22
randy1503
Lewis and Clark
 
randy1503's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 739
maybe those guys who were shot and didn't flinch were high on drugs.
randy1503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2005, 20:46   #23
turbonatr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: N.E., PA
Posts: 8,372
Send a message via AIM to turbonatr
Quote:
Originally posted by randy1503
maybe those guys who were shot and didn't flinch were high on drugs.
Even cops shot during gunfights report not noticing they were hit until after the fight was over. Adrenalin dump is a very powerful thing.
__________________
P.A. Glocker Charter Member #48
Pennsylvania Constitution Article I, Section 21
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of
themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
turbonatr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2005, 22:06   #24
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,789


Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
Even cops shot during gunfights report not noticing they were hit until after the fight was over. Adrenalin dump is a very powerful thing.
Yep, so don't stop shooting!!!
__________________
http://www.rockymountaintactical.net/

Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2005, 10:05   #25
utahglock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Midland, MI
Posts: 555
"collage?"

So we accepting a "collage" as a way to destroy a myth? Sounds intellecually silly and lazy to me.

I've never advocated shooting only once-the one shot stop whether you agree or not is simply a unit of measurement.

Evan
utahglock is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:14.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 750
180 Members
570 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42