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Old 11-09-2007, 12:03   #1
Brian@ITC
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Helping Firearms Legislative Groups...

It never ceases to amaze me as to how many people own guns and do not receive training other than what is required by law. This training does NOT prepare you for a life threatening situation.

This past weekend we held a fundraiser for Buckeye Firearms Association. There are approximately 100,000+ CCW holders in Ohio. It is because of organizations such as Buckeye Firearms that you have the privilege of carrying a gun concealed in Ohio! People tend to take things for granted when it comes to organizations such as the BFA.

You should support organizations like the BFA by contributing $25 or more a year to help continue to fight for your rights to carry and improve those rights! I was a bit upset that with nearly 100,000 licensees that we had only 11 participants to help raise funds. No, it wasn’t about Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC making money because quite honestly we did. We helped with the event because we believe in BFA! Now, here is the kicker. We are not residents of Ohio but we are helping YOU to keep your rights by helping the organization raise funds. ITC will continue to work with BFA to help raise funds because we are licensed to carry in Ohio (through Utah permits) and because we have family and friends who live in Ohio and we realize the importance of keeping those rights for family and friends.

Quite honestly, BFA (or any other firearms legislative groups) should be able to hold fundraisers several times a year and be able to fill “courses” at any time with the number of CHL holders Ohio has. What is it going to cost you if you loose those rights because no one is fighting for you? If legislative firearms groups cannot generate funds to stay afloat, then how are they going to continue to fight for you and what you wanted so badly?

Is $25 a year or even $250 for a course each year too much to pay to keep those rights? Can you put a price on those rights? If every Ohioan who has a CHL contributed a mere $5 per month, think about how much more the BFA could do for you and your rights!!! Who would miss $5.00 per month? Everyone wants to sit back and complain about the laws in Ohio and how “messed up” they are, but no one really seems to want to help support one of the organizations who are fighting for your rights. It takes $$MONEY$$ to get things done people. Lawyers aren’t cheap and you cannot expect them to work for free! Would you work for free?

This brings us to our next point. You should volunteer to help out with BFA and other organizations that are fighting for your rights. It will cost you a few hours a month, but at least you would be doing something to help fight for your rights!

I am a firm believer that in most situations you are either part of the problem or part of the solution directly or indirectly. If you are not supporting the BFA and other organizations financially or by volunteering, then you are probably part of the problem. By nature people want to complain, but not do anything to help be a part of the solution. If you help out financially or by volunteering, then you are probably part of the solution. The question is, WHICH PART DO YOU WANT TO BE OR ARE YOU GOING TO BE?!!!

In short, if you aren’t going to be part of the solution, then don’t gripe about things when you loose your rights!!! And, don’t complain about the way that the laws are currently written.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:15   #2
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WOW! That was very nice!!!

Speaking of supporting: Brian and Tim did an incrediable job instructing the 2 day advanced pistol fighting class this past weekend. Everyone left with a clearer picture of the fact that your firearm is not always going to be your first option when attacked.

These gentleman are incrediable instructors. TAKE THEIR CLASSES!! I can't scream the importance of getting further training after you get your CHL. This is the place to start.

http://www.right2defend.com
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Old 11-09-2007, 19:40   #3
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Brian@ITC,

With all due respect to your opinion, most Ohio CCW holders are 'conservative' and I dare say Republican. Please do your research and see the candidates that the Ohio gun rights groups endorsed in the past elections for Ohio's highest offices!
Yes, we had a RINO, anti-gun rights Governor. Yes, change was begged by all Ohioans including the 'conservative' base. That Governor was out of step with his party and he knew it. The Republican candidate running (Ken Blackwell) was a true believer in 2nd Amendment rights and was the change for the party that we wished for.
I applaud the work of the Ohio gun rights groups for 2nd Amendment rights. But, I refuse to hand over any of my $$, or my time to anyone or any group that supports a Democrat on ONE ISSUE! Your post makes it quite obvious that many other Ohio CCW holders feel similar. We believe very strongly in our 2nd Amendment rights but we also can see the big picture of electing a Democrat on that lone issue. For your information, Governor Strickland has just endorsed Hilly Dilly Clinton! Now we will hold our breath in fear of her possible election and see if the spoken words of this Governor concerning the 2nd Amendment will stay true if that occurs. She would pressure him into worse than Taft ever was!
Please do not try to shame Ohioans for staying the course and refusing to back any group (with $$ or time) after they endorsed such a candidate when another choice was also at hand!

edited to add: We have many other ways we work for 2nd Amendment rights! It isn't only giving $$ and time to the registered gun-rights groups. I personally contact often, elected officials. I give my $$ and assistance (volunteer time) to those I know work for my rights (2A and all others). I make it a point to write and phone businesses that post no gun signs. I write letters to the editor. I do spend as much of my (personal) time and $$ as almost anyone else in Ohio can say they do. We as individuals can make great strides too. We do not have to assist any one organization to be effective.
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:40   #4
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firedog, you need to check your facts Sir. BFA DID NOT endorse Strickland in either the primary or the general election. This is the 2nd time in one day you've said that, and it is untrue Sir.

As far as Strickland endorsing Hillary, of course it's disappointing, but certainly not a huge surprise now is it? Was going to be Obama or Hillary, as most Govs will be endorsing someone, won't they? After all, he is a Dem, and you didn't expect him to endorse Fred, Rudy, Mitt, Ron, Mike, etc, did you?

Thank you for what you are doing to support our 2nd Amendment Rights Sir.
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Old 11-10-2007, 08:29   #5
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firedog, you need to check your facts Sir. BFA DID NOT endorse Strickland in either the primary or the general election. This is the 2nd time in one day you've said that, and it is untrue Sir.

As far as Strickland endorsing Hillary, of course it's disappointing, but certainly not a huge surprise now is it? Was going to be Obama or Hillary, as most Govs will be endorsing someone, won't they? After all, he is a Dem, and you didn't expect him to endorse Fred, Rudy, Mitt, Ron, Mike, etc, did you?

Thank you for what you are doing to support our 2nd Amendment Rights Sir.

Well now Linda, just a 2 minute check of BFA website turned this up. I might add that numerous other issues in that same 2 minute check were available for me to use to CORRECT YOU!
I have my facts straight, thank you very much! You're a BFA leader aren't you?

And yes, I did expect him to follow the Dem leadership if he became Governor. That's why you and some others were warned (on this site) at the time by me about endorsing a Dem. Those old threads (here) do not seem to be available since the change. I remember distinctly, saying he'll flop under the pressure of the party he must follow to get future consideration for Dem. endorsement or party $$. Seems my prediction is coming true.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3099.html

_______________________________________________________________________
Buckeye Firearms endorses Ted Strickland in Democratic Primary for Governor
Posted on Thursday, April 27 @ 14:30:20 EDT by cbaus

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By Jim Irvine

Buckeye Firearms Association is proud to endorse Ted Strickland for Governor of Ohio in the May 2 Democratic primary election.

Mr. Strickland grew up hunting in Appalachian Ohio. As a child he learned that guns are tools to put food on the table. As an adult he understands that concealed carry to protect your family is equally important.

Congressmen Strickland has been a consistent defender of our Second Amendment rights in Washington D.C. and deserves Democrats' support in the primary on May 2, 2006.

Related Story:
Strickland Wins NRA Endorsement
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Old 11-10-2007, 08:37   #6
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direct solicitations are a bit much. i deleted my first response, it ran to about six paragraphs and was confrontationally rude.

how about.. you stipulate benefits, and who is getting them, rather than approach the public assuming they share your area of concern AND methods?
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Old 11-10-2007, 09:21   #7
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I will stand corrected dog that we endorsed in the "Democratic primary". Many of the primaries, we endorsed in BOTH party races.
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Old 11-10-2007, 18:22   #8
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What's with the lecture? I also don't think BFA should be endorsing one particular program over another.

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Old 11-10-2007, 18:32   #9
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Originally Posted by firedog978 View Post
Well now Linda, just a 2 minute check of BFA website turned this up.

Buckeye Firearms endorses Ted Strickland in Democratic Primary for Governor
Posted on Thursday, April 27 @ 14:30:20 EDT by cbaus
If I recall correctly, BFA did not endorse either candidate in the general election for governor last year. In the primary, I believe they endorsed Strickland on the Democratic side because he had a pro gun voting record while he was in the US Congress. I do not remember who ran against Strickland in the primary; but I am fairly sure it was someone who was staunchly anti-gun. Criticizing a pro second amendment group for endorsing a candidate with a pro second amendment record, over someone who is against gun rights, in a primary seems rather disingenuous to me.

As I recall, BFA did not endorse one candidate over the other in the general election because it was believed that both Ted Strickland and Ken Blackwell would be pro gun rights governors.

I can see nothing wrong with what they did in terms of promoting pro second amendment candidates. Now if you are only concerned with partisan, party politics, then you might have a beef with an organization that endorsed pro gun democrats, such as, Marc Dann over anti gun republicans such as Betty Montgomery.

I believe that we will only see improvement from our elected officials when we as voting citizens begin casting our votes for the individual that we believe will best represent us and our beliefs and stop worrying about partisan, party politics. I have been a registered Republican since I voted for Ronald Reagan in the presidential primary of 1980, as a 17 year old who would be 18 by the general election. However, this did not stop me from voting for Zell Miller in a special election to fill the US Senate seat of Paul Coverdale, after he passed away in office, in 2000, while I lived in Metro Atlanta. Again, I voted for the individual that I believed best reflected my thoughts, beliefs and ideals, not a political party.
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Old 11-10-2007, 18:36   #10
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How did Brian's comments become contorted into an attack on BFA? Yes, we endorsed Strickland and you know what no matter how you stack it he's a far better governor then the last Rhino we had. We also endorsed Blackwell and Bill Peirce. BFA simple stated all 3 are good on our issue. Most of our people worked for Blackwell despite his arrogance and poorly organized campaign. It was a rare opportunity for gun owners and BFA to have 3 strong pro gun candidates to choose from. If Ohio wanted the most PRO gun Governor it would have chosen Bill Peirce. The only one who is to blame for republican loses and a democratic governor are the Ohio republican party and Bob Bennet. Personally I worked very hard for Petro in the primaries as I knew Blackwell would lose the general and he did.

We "BFA" are an unbiased one issue pac, we will fight for you rights and support the best candidate/s on the 2A. It's up to you to take into account your beliefs on the other issues and party loyalty. Firedog I respect you and your opinion sir, We have a good history. But you are barking up the wrong tree when you blame BFA for the Ohio GOP's failings. It's also fantastic that you actively support pro gun candidates and legislation. This is very important. But if you want to know the dirty truth about politicians is most don't care. They care about being elected, holding onto power, not taking chances and lining their own pockets. There are a few great folks who hold office and we must endeavor to single out and support them. In order to move legislation, to be effective you have to be organized and be in a position to fight from the inside. nothing happens without much work. That's what BFA can do that you may not be able to do on your own.

Brian is a wonderful instructor and was good enough to hold a fundraiser for us. His statement here is genuine and hasn't been discussed with the BFA leadership. He simply saw gun owner apathy for himself and was highlighting that. For that he is being chastised? While it's true BFA does need your support, financially and volunteering your time. But that's your choice whether you wish to support us. I think Brian's point is valid, nothing will come from nothing. If you don't help, don't put in your time or silver then you have lost the right to complain.

2008 is going to be a watershed year. Federally there has been no serious threat to our rights since the AWB sunset. Politicians aren't stupid, they are however obtuse.. They know gun control is a losing issue in a campaign year. But don't think for one moment after the presidential election guns will remain off the table for long. Will you support BFA, GOA, SAF when the next big fight comes? Right now we're fighting to move castle for the safety and freedom of all ohioans and have opponents in every corner. Speaking in generalities and not at anyone person, sure, don't support us because your a neo con and believe the Republican party lost because we co endorsed Strickland. Strickland would sign castle doctrine today if it was on his desk. Who do you think is holding up the works? One clue it ain't us or the D's. It's your rights, you decide..

Again I have the greatest respect for everyone here. Firedog I consider you a friend and you know I'm the real deal. The BFA volunteers and leaders put in so much time to the point of giving up personal time, income etc, please be respectful if not supportive. Linda has done more then most men could even begin to do for gun rights in Ohio and deserves all of our thanks. Let's try to work together and get some things done!

Some quotes to ponder..

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." Samuel Adams, (1722-1803) U.S. Founding Father and Public Enemy #1

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

- John Stuart Mill, 1806 - 1873

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edited for spelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firedog978 View Post
Brian@ITC,

With all due respect to your opinion, most Ohio CCW holders are 'conservative' and I dare say Republican. Please do your research and see the candidates that the Ohio gun rights groups endorsed in the past elections for Ohio's highest offices!
Yes, we had a RINO, anti-gun rights Governor. Yes, change was begged by all Ohioans including the 'conservative' base. That Governor was out of step with his party and he knew it. The Republican candidate running (Ken Blackwell) was a true believer in 2nd Amendment rights and was the change for the party that we wished for.
I applaud the work of the Ohio gun rights groups for 2nd Amendment rights. But, I refuse to hand over any of my $$, or my time to anyone or any group that supports a Democrat on ONE ISSUE! Your post makes it quite obvious that many other Ohio CCW holders feel similar. We believe very strongly in our 2nd Amendment rights but we also can see the big picture of electing a Democrat on that lone issue. For your information, Governor Strickland has just endorsed Hilly Dilly Clinton! Now we will hold our breath in fear of her possible election and see if the spoken words of this Governor concerning the 2nd Amendment will stay true if that occurs. She would pressure him into worse than Taft ever was!
Please do not try to shame Ohioans for staying the course and refusing to back any group (with $$ or time) after they endorsed such a candidate when another choice was also at hand!

edited to add: We have many other ways we work for 2nd Amendment rights! It isn't only giving $$ and time to the registered gun-rights groups. I personally contact often, elected officials. I give my $$ and assistance (volunteer time) to those I know work for my rights (2A and all others). I make it a point to write and phone businesses that post no gun signs. I write letters to the editor. I do spend as much of my (personal) time and $$ as almost anyone else in Ohio can say they do. We as individuals can make great strides too. We do not have to assist any one organization to be effective.
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Old 11-10-2007, 22:54   #11
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KnightOfTheOlde,

Let me set something straight here before this gets more off base from my intent than it is now.
First, I did not attack BFA or Linda. I made the statement that Strickland was endorsed by BFA with a more viable candidate available (pro 2A). I believe I stated that I applaud the Ohio gun rights organizations and individuals for their efforts with 2A rights. I simply followed that with a request to see the entire picture and not just one issue when electing a Governor. I went on to explain the bigger picture by indicating the D next to Strickland was an affiliation to a party that also (historically speaking), calls for higher taxes, more welfare programs, big government, etc. I didn't attack anyone of you.
Second, yes Knight we have a good history and I too consider you a friend. I again applaud your work on 2A rights. But I just cannot agree with such an important thing as electing a Governor cannot take into account the bigger and entire picture. My point to Brian's post was that most of us Ohio CCW holders are not apathetic to working for or donating money to or volunteering time to our Ohio gun rights. We do have that ability to do so without supporting a self-confessed one issue organization. I find myself feeling like I must also consider the other aspects and repercussions of an election of someone to be just as important to me as an American (Ohioan) as my 2A considerations. Therefore, I cannot support with money or volunteered time the one issue organization that doesn't see the rest of the picture with so much else also at stake.
I never intended to make my posts look like I was attacking BFA or Linda. I apologize if I unintentionally had that occur. However, it was Linda that posted after me that BFA had not endorsed Strickland in the general election or the primary and I felt her scolding me for saying so. I of course had to post again and prove her wrong, as I knew she was. Perhaps that's where you thought I was attacking her?
Finaly, I do not wish to have anyone feel I am against an organization or an individual that supports Ohio gun rights (including Brian). But, I must explain to Brian and anyone else that felt his post was justified as to why many of us cannot and will not support actively with $$ and time a one issue fight. Furthermore, Brian was a bit harsh in his post to any and all that didn't join, donate or volunteer to BFA and the other organizations in Ohio. I'd say he deserved to be responded to and I did so. I did so in a way that made it clear as to why. That may have been taken as an attack on BFA which I never intended.
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Old 11-11-2007, 00:22   #12
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Firedog is anti-BFA and has been since the BFA article condemning the drunk trooper (which was based on the OSP's findings). Three tests later, the OSP said the trooper wasn't drunk. The article was amended, but firedog still has his axe to grind.

He is a troll, don't feed him.
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Old 11-11-2007, 07:57   #13
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Firedog is anti-BFA and has been since the BFA article condemning the drunk trooper (which was based on the OSP's findings). Three tests later, the OSP said the trooper wasn't drunk. The article was amended, but firedog still has his axe to grind.

He is a troll, don't feed him.
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I am NOT anti BFA.
But,

If you feel that everyone in Ohio who believes in 2nd Amendment rights must support all of BFA's ideals, so be it.
If you believe that noone can disagree with some of what BFA does or says so be it.
If you believe that someone who chastises all Ohio CHL holders that don't support BFA directly and actively is correct in doing so, so be it.
If you believe that someone cannot come onto this site and have a slightly different point of view (politicaly), so be it.
If you believe blindly following an organization's every action, idea, belief and cause without question on some points is the correct thing to do...........

Then the troll says hello to the sheeple.
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Old 11-15-2007, 21:51   #14
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firedog, you need to check your facts Sir. BFA DID NOT endorse Strickland in either the primary or the general election. This is the 2nd time in one day you've said that, and it is untrue Sir.

As far as Strickland endorsing Hillary, of course it's disappointing, but certainly not a huge surprise now is it? Was going to be Obama or Hillary, as most Govs will be endorsing someone, won't they? After all, he is a Dem, and you didn't expect him to endorse Fred, Rudy, Mitt, Ron, Mike, etc, did you?

Thank you for what you are doing to support our 2nd Amendment Rights Sir.
I expect him , Strickland, to put his money where his mouth is!! He says he supports gun rights, then he appoints Lee Fisher to be Lt. Governor. You mean to tell me he couldn't find anyone?? Just remember what Strickland is first and foremost, a politician. He is supporting Hillary to better himself, i.e. VP.

I believe the BFA is a great organization. I also believe there are many dedicated members who run the organization for most likely little monetary gain. For this I am proud to support you.

As a side note I also agree the article about he dead trooper was way OUT OF LINE. The trooper did not make OSHP policy and opinion on CCW. He merely died doing a job so few have the stones to do. May he RIP.
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Old 11-17-2007, 22:33   #15
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As a side note I also agree the article about he dead trooper was way OUT OF LINE. The trooper did not make OSHP policy and opinion on CCW. He merely died doing a job so few have the stones to do. May he RIP.
I still fail to see where BFA reporting about the trooper was un-appropriate. BFA did not make it up. At that time it already has been reported by AP (at least it is where I read it *before* BFA reported it).

I think, some people just cannot get over the fact, that LEO are human and sometimes make a mistake and/or a wrongful decision (or a bad apple gets through the system and ends up in the uniform with a gun and a badge - never happens?).

A few days ago Ohio News Network reported about a Columbus cop who was caught after hit-and-run, also with blood-alcohol level above the limit – if BFA reprints it, it also will be out of line?
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Old 11-18-2007, 00:55   #16
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I still fail to see where BFA reporting about the trooper was un-appropriate. BFA did not make it up. At that time it already has been reported by AP (at least it is where I read it *before* BFA reported it).

I think, some people just cannot get over the fact, that LEO are human and sometimes make a mistake and/or a wrongful decision (or a bad apple gets through the system and ends up in the uniform with a gun and a badge - never happens?).

A few days ago Ohio News Network reported about a Columbus cop who was caught after hit-and-run, also with blood-alcohol level above the limit – if BFA reprints it, it also will be out of line?
He was not intoxicated!! End of story. The BFA jumped on this story to make headlines...period. The Trooper was killed along with is Sgt. in the same car. BFA took all their frustration with the OSHP on this one 27yr old Trooper. Funny how I posted this two days ago and noone from BFA, who I support, responded. Get up everyday, put on a vest, go to work and put your life on the line. I have for 8 yrs. have you????
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Old 11-18-2007, 01:52   #17
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He was not intoxicated!! End of story. The BFA jumped on this story to make headlines...period. The Trooper was killed along with is Sgt. in the same car. BFA took all their frustration with the OSHP on this one 27yr old Trooper. Funny how I posted this two days ago and noone from BFA, who I support, responded.
Again, first AP reported that story, not BFA. Did you complained to AP that they are way out of line? Keep in mind, that neither I nor BFA nor AP know what happened unless it was reported by OSHP. It was originally OSHP's own declaration about intoxication - did you also complained to OSHP about them being out of line?
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Get up everyday, put on a vest, go to work and put your life on the line. I have for 8 yrs. have you????
No, I haven't. However, I lived in places where just walking on the street could put your life on the line. Does it count? It is funny you brought it up when I mentioned that LEO are just normal people, and not a supreme privileged race... I guess you understand that your line of business has no bearing to what happened (unless you have some additional information about that particular story, which you do not), so there is no point to bring it up.
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Old 11-19-2007, 17:33   #18
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Okay... well. First of all my apologies for not responding sooner but apparently I wasn't getting instant notifications for some reason.

First of all, I believe that the BFA is a good 2A organization. From those I have come in contact with they are great people.

However, one of my points was simply that with all of the CHL holders in Ohio, only a handful thought they needed further training which is a bit disturbing because everyone needs to further their training, including me!

My second point was that I see how little people want to support those who are fighting for YOUR gun rights.

I did not intend to start a pissing match about the BFA and other organizations. In fact, I never once said JUST the BFA.

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You should support organizations like the BFA by contributing $25 or more a year to help continue to fight for your rights to carry and improve those rights!
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Quite honestly, BFA (or any other firearms legislative groups) should be able to hold fundraisers several times a year and be able to fill “courses” at any time with the number of CHL holders Ohio has.
Yes, I can speak personally speak about the BFA over other organizations because I know several of these people on a personal level.
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Old 11-19-2007, 22:27   #19
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Let me say something...

I posted this because of the reasons previously mentioned in my original post. This was an unsolicited post. NO ONE asked me to post it. We were just very disappointed with the turnout for an event that is FOR YOU!!! If I didn't make a penny off the event I would have said the SAME THING because it is the TRUTH. End of story.
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