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Old 11-19-2007, 16:29   #381
pangris
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Originally Posted by hjery View Post
What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.
The head is a crappy target. You have to put your hits in the ocular cavity for it to be effective.

Center mass body shots drop the blood pressure to the brain, which is what stops people from being a threat.

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.
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Old 11-19-2007, 19:28   #382
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Originally Posted by hjery View Post
What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.
If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.
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Old 11-19-2007, 21:11   #383
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Originally Posted by cole View Post
If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.
That is the issue - the vunerable part of the head is the triangle from the corners of the eyes to the bottom of the nose - more like a 3x5 index card than a cantelope.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:45   #384
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I previously posted this in another forum and will share it here....

This isn't a I know a friend of a friend story. I know both of the officers and have heard the details of this shooting from both....

A close friend and nephew of mine (narc) were involved in a shoot out in a mall parking lot. The BG exited his car firing one shot from his Glock 22and missing.... My friend fired one shot from 25 feet away hitting the BG in the center of the chest (Glock 21 200gr Gold Dot JHP +P) the BG fell on his back. My nephew stood over the BG while he did the death rattle (2 gasps of air) and the bad guy never moved again until the corner rolled him over. When he did there was a 200 grain slug that had exited his back and was lying there on the asphalt.

Many law enforcement agencies have recently switched to the 357 Sig. If I ever have to get shot, and have a choice, I'd prefer the 9mm over the 357 Sig, 40 or 45...
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:57   #385
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Originally Posted by cole View Post
If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.
The region of the chest/thoracic cavity which is likely to cause blood drop to the point of incapacitation in 5-10 seconds (with a good expanding JHP in .40, .45, or .357 Sig) is considerably smaller than a basketball. Think of a 4-6" diameter sphere centered in the chest basically comprised of the heart and lung tissue sufficiently close to the heart that it is rich in vascular tissue. Hitting someone in the lungs too far from the heart is likely to cause much slower bleeding and a long time until they lose enough blood. Of course, shots that hit low have a decent chance of hitting the liver, but optimal damage here depends on energy transfer and temporary cavitation.

There are a lot of shot locations in the thoracic cavity where there simply is not enough vascular tissue to cause a rapid (5-10 seconds) bleed out.

Michael Courtney
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Old 11-29-2007, 22:19   #386
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Empty the gun

After reading alot of the post here I would have to say do what a highway patrol friend of mine said to do. Shoot till the gun goes click and if they are still moving put in another clip!
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Old 12-22-2007, 21:55   #387
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Then maybe try a .50 cal.
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Old 12-22-2007, 23:56   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pangris View Post
The head is a crappy target. You have to put your hits in the ocular cavity for it to be effective.

Center mass body shots drop the blood pressure to the brain, which is what stops people from being a threat.

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.
It is not hard to shoot someone in the head at close range.Im not talking about long range shots and also not talking about shooting people in the face just the head.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:20   #389
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Originally Posted by pangris View Post
Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.
If you actually see the Miami shootout details, you will find out the two hits actually took Maddox out of the fight (even though they did not kill him immediately, he definitely was not a factor in the fight--Platt did all the damage).
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Old 12-27-2007, 16:44   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hjery View Post
It is not hard to shoot someone in the head at close range.Im not talking about long range shots and also not talking about shooting people in the face just the head.
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Originally Posted by REC View Post
If you actually see the Miami shootout details, you will find out the two hits actually took Maddox out of the fight (even though they did not kill him immediately, he definitely was not a factor in the fight--Platt did all the damage).
Whats wrong with you people! Im talking about head shots at close range in a self defense situation when shooting them in the chest doesn't stop them. Of course shooting someone in the face would not stop them. Im talking about the HEAD not the face.
And you guys are saying stupid stuff about shooting in a certain part of the head in order to kill and that it is hard to shoot someone in the head and all that other crap. Shooting someone in the head would stop anyone.Come on people If you can't shoot someone in the head at close range then maybe you shouldn't own a gun or maybe have either your eyes or your gun sights checked.
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Old 01-16-2008, 20:59   #391
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About the only thing you can say for certain is that when it comes to handguns, nothing is certain.
I know of one shooting where the BG who was in the act of robbing a bank, with his handgun out and waving it around, was shot from 5ft away, with a 124gr 9mm GDHP by a customer in the bank. The bullet entered his liver and stopped. Witness' said he dropped like a bag of potatos. The man survived and later served 51 months in prison for various charges.
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Old 01-24-2008, 13:39   #392
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Originally Posted by Dr. Courtney View Post
The region of the chest/thoracic cavity which is likely to cause blood drop to the point of incapacitation in 5-10 seconds (with a good expanding JHP in .40, .45, or .357 Sig) is considerably smaller than a basketball. Think of a 4-6" diameter sphere centered in the chest basically comprised of the heart and lung tissue sufficiently close to the heart that it is rich in vascular tissue. Hitting someone in the lungs too far from the heart is likely to cause much slower bleeding and a long time until they lose enough blood. Of course, shots that hit low have a decent chance of hitting the liver, but optimal damage here depends on energy transfer and temporary cavitation.

There are a lot of shot locations in the thoracic cavity where there simply is not enough vascular tissue to cause a rapid (5-10 seconds) bleed out.

Michael Courtney
Hello, Michael,

The CNS area is the area that works the best when hit by a typical handgun bullet... it is actually about 2" in diameter, and about 15" long... think cylinder-shaped area (long dimension going up-and-down) from the lower end of the heart (inferior portion of the heart) up to the top of the brain (superior portion of the brain)... with the spine and major nerves and arteries that run along the spine inside this imaginary cylinder shape...

Liver damage would be mostly from stretching and shearing forces (tearing) of this relatively fragile organ tisue...

In both cases, remote damage is not effective... you need actual damage primarily from direct contact from the bullet...

-Ron.
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Old 01-24-2008, 13:48   #393
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Hello, Michael,

The CNS area is the area that works the best when hit by a typical handgun bullet... it is actually about 2" in diameter, and about 15" long... think cylinder-shaped area (long dimension going up-and-down) from the lower end of the heart (inferior portion of the heart) up to the top of the brain (superior portion of the brain)... with the spine and major nerves and arteries that run along the spine inside this imaginary cylinder shape...

Liver damage would be mostly from stretching and shearing forces (tearing) of this relatively fragile organ tisue...

In both cases, remote damage is not effective... you need actual damage primarily from direct contact from the bullet...

-Ron.
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Old 01-24-2008, 15:17   #394
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Old 01-27-2008, 09:35   #395
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:45   #396
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And as with hunting, the bullet needs to damage vital organs, or arteries...
So adequate penetration is necessary...
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:23   #397
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I am convinced putting bunches of holes in the attackers chest very quickly is the answer. If nothing else, the perp will bleed out before he beats you to death with your empty weapon.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:41   #398
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I want to give you energy experts something to think about!

I have a hunting friend who shot a medium size deer -broadside right thru the heart---the deer ran aprox. 105 feet before the deer fell and died! The rifle ammo used has 2000+ foot pounds of energy!

Still feel confident using your handgun?

Your shot placement better be exact otherwise you will need multiple shots--whether its a 9mm, 40 cal. or 45cal.-pistol!

I speak from experience as a former Marine Sniper!
Until you have been there the rest is but opinions!
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:45   #399
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I am convinced putting bunches of holes in the attackers chest very quickly is the answer. If nothing else, the perp will bleed out before he beats you to death with your empty weapon.
My philosophy, also...
I want a handgun round that meets the 12" minimum (I actually prefer 13-15"), expands well and consistantly (I use the Ranger RA9T), has a 'cutting action' (Ranger)... and I want my handgun to be ergonomic and high-capacity (Glock 17)...

After that, I agree with rapid, well-placed hits...
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Old 02-26-2008, 00:51   #400
uz2bUSMC
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I have a hunting friend who shot a medium size deer -broadside right thru the heart---the deer ran aprox. 105 feet before the deer fell and died! The rifle ammo used has 2000+ foot pounds of energy!

Quote:
Still feel confident using your handgun?
Yep...
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