[cole]

Originally Posted by RMTactical

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15

Hollywood and TV, for the non-gun person, does more to ensure the shot-and-drop myth is passed on from generation to generation. In gun circles, it's used as a basis for determing better and worse. We all want to think we have the best, to pad our ego or otherwise. Reality is so much more complicated than the one on paper, but, given a large enough sample size, the effect of spurious variables are mitigated and the resulting data set has validity. You can't look case-to-case, but instead at the bigger picture over time. Reliable incapacitation by a handun is about what is physically destroyed by the hole. Period.

[UnTainted]

Originally Posted by cole

Reliable incapacitation by a handgun is about what is physically destroyed by the hole. Period.

That's exactly how my old man put it to me when he gave me my first handgun: a browning hi-power. Course, I took confidence in his opinion given that he was a physician and understood wound anatomy from ER work. Bought me a 17 round mag to go with the 13s and learned to shoot accurately fast. I'm no pro, but I know what I'm aiming for here, not some elusive particular caliber or gun setup, but practice, practice, practice. I love this realization given that it will be the sweetest driving force for buying plenty of ammo for life.

[unit1069]

Originally Posted by Bailenforcer

At close range I prefer my Benelli Tactical 12 gauge loaded with Number 4 Buck shot as it's a proven man stopper, and yes even better than 00 Buck!! Thst's not to say 00 isn't good, it's just proved the added pellets of 4 buckshot delivers far faster and more devastaing shock trauma wounds.

I have a Mossberg 88 12-gauge. When I lived in California a decade ago my good friend, a Vietnam vet and former Army rifle team member, told me to load it with #4 buckshot.

Today is the first time I've seen anybody but him endorse that particular shell. It's always, "Go with 000 buck, or 00 buck, etc...", but it always made sense in the way he explained it to me.

"Shooting an attacker with #4 buckshot is like shooting him with a full box of .22s at once."

I have no doubt the other loads are deadly but if the #4 won't stop an attacker then the victim better get away as fast as he/she can.

[hjery]

Originally Posted by RMTactical

No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.

What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.

[MSgt Dotson]

Originally Posted by unit1069

I have a Mossberg 88 12-gauge. When I lived in California a decade ago my good friend, a Vietnam vet and former Army rifle team member, told me to load it with #4 buckshot.

.

For close range encounters, the #4 buck works well, but, #1 buck gives better penetration beyond 15 yards...

[pangris]

Originally Posted by hjery

What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.

The head is a crappy target. You have to put your hits in the ocular cavity for it to be effective.

Center mass body shots drop the blood pressure to the brain, which is what stops people from being a threat.

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.

[cole]

Originally Posted by hjery

What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.

If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.

[pangris]

Originally Posted by cole

If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.

That is the issue - the vunerable part of the head is the triangle from the corners of the eyes to the bottom of the nose - more like a 3x5 index card than a cantelope.

[myglockisa23]

I previously posted this in another forum and will share it here....

This isn't a I know a friend of a friend story. I know both of the officers and have heard the details of this shooting from both....

A close friend and nephew of mine (narc) were involved in a shoot out in a mall parking lot. The BG exited his car firing one shot from his Glock 22and missing.... My friend fired one shot from 25 feet away hitting the BG in the center of the chest (Glock 21 200gr Gold Dot JHP +P) the BG fell on his back. My nephew stood over the BG while he did the death rattle (2 gasps of air) and the bad guy never moved again until the corner rolled him over. When he did there was a 200 grain slug that had exited his back and was lying there on the asphalt.

Many law enforcement agencies have recently switched to the 357 Sig. If I ever have to get shot, and have a choice, I'd prefer the 9mm over the 357 Sig, 40 or 45...
__________________

[Dr. Courtney]

Originally Posted by cole

If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.

The region of the chest/thoracic cavity which is likely to cause blood drop to the point of incapacitation in 5-10 seconds (with a good expanding JHP in .40, .45, or .357 Sig) is considerably smaller than a basketball. Think of a 4-6" diameter sphere centered in the chest basically comprised of the heart and lung tissue sufficiently close to the heart that it is rich in vascular tissue. Hitting someone in the lungs too far from the heart is likely to cause much slower bleeding and a long time until they lose enough blood. Of course, shots that hit low have a decent chance of hitting the liver, but optimal damage here depends on energy transfer and temporary cavitation.

There are a lot of shot locations in the thoracic cavity where there simply is not enough vascular tissue to cause a rapid (5-10 seconds) bleed out.

Michael Courtney

[sbrown39564]

After reading alot of the post here I would have to say do what a highway patrol friend of mine said to do. Shoot till the gun goes click and if they are still moving put in another clip!

[Southern Kyllr]

Then maybe try a .50 cal.

[hjery]

Originally Posted by pangris

The head is a crappy target. You have to put your hits in the ocular cavity for it to be effective.

Center mass body shots drop the blood pressure to the brain, which is what stops people from being a threat.

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.

It is not hard to shoot someone in the head at close range.Im not talking about long range shots and also not talking about shooting people in the face just the head.

[REC]

Originally Posted by pangris

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.

If you actually see the Miami shootout details, you will find out the two hits actually took Maddox out of the fight (even though they did not kill him immediately, he definitely was not a factor in the fight--Platt did all the damage).

[hjery]

Originally Posted by hjery

It is not hard to shoot someone in the head at close range.Im not talking about long range shots and also not talking about shooting people in the face just the head.

Originally Posted by REC

If you actually see the Miami shootout details, you will find out the two hits actually took Maddox out of the fight (even though they did not kill him immediately, he definitely was not a factor in the fight--Platt did all the damage).

Whats wrong with you people! Im talking about head shots at close range in a self defense situation when shooting them in the chest doesn't stop them. Of course shooting someone in the face would not stop them. Im talking about the HEAD not the face.
And you guys are saying stupid stuff about shooting in a certain part of the head in order to kill and that it is hard to shoot someone in the head and all that other crap. Shooting someone in the head would stop anyone.Come on people If you can't shoot someone in the head at close range then maybe you shouldn't own a gun or maybe have either your eyes or your gun sights checked.

[Soujurn]

About the only thing you can say for certain is that when it comes to handguns, nothing is certain.
I know of one shooting where the BG who was in the act of robbing a bank, with his handgun out and waving it around, was shot from 5ft away, with a 124gr 9mm GDHP by a customer in the bank. The bullet entered his liver and stopped. Witness' said he dropped like a bag of potatos. The man survived and later served 51 months in prison for various charges.

Originally Posted by Dr. Courtney

The region of the chest/thoracic cavity which is likely to cause blood drop to the point of incapacitation in 5-10 seconds (with a good expanding JHP in .40, .45, or .357 Sig) is considerably smaller than a basketball. Think of a 4-6" diameter sphere centered in the chest basically comprised of the heart and lung tissue sufficiently close to the heart that it is rich in vascular tissue. Hitting someone in the lungs too far from the heart is likely to cause much slower bleeding and a long time until they lose enough blood. Of course, shots that hit low have a decent chance of hitting the liver, but optimal damage here depends on energy transfer and temporary cavitation.

There are a lot of shot locations in the thoracic cavity where there simply is not enough vascular tissue to cause a rapid (5-10 seconds) bleed out.

Michael Courtney

Hello, Michael,

The CNS area is the area that works the best when hit by a typical handgun bullet... it is actually about 2" in diameter, and about 15" long... think cylinder-shaped area (long dimension going up-and-down) from the lower end of the heart (inferior portion of the heart) up to the top of the brain (superior portion of the brain)... with the spine and major nerves and arteries that run along the spine inside this imaginary cylinder shape...

Liver damage would be mostly from stretching and shearing forces (tearing) of this relatively fragile organ tisue...

In both cases, remote damage is not effective... you need actual damage primarily from direct contact from the bullet...

-Ron.

[Rugby]

Originally Posted by Glock17JHP

Hello, Michael,

The CNS area is the area that works the best when hit by a typical handgun bullet... it is actually about 2" in diameter, and about 15" long... think cylinder-shaped area (long dimension going up-and-down) from the lower end of the heart (inferior portion of the heart) up to the top of the brain (superior portion of the brain)... with the spine and major nerves and arteries that run along the spine inside this imaginary cylinder shape...

Liver damage would be mostly from stretching and shearing forces (tearing) of this relatively fragile organ tisue...

In both cases, remote damage is not effective... you need actual damage primarily from direct contact from the bullet...

-Ron.

Welcome back!!!

Whoever is in charge here... please do me a favor and kick me off this 'silly ass' GlockTalk site... and please make it where I can NEVER get back on it... PLEASE!!! You folks here are some of the most ignorant, rude and stupid people I have EVER had the displeasure of meeting!!! PLEASE kick me off and block me PERMANENTLY so I don't EVER have to ever again read this junk!!! Good-fricken-bye!!!

Originally Posted by Rugby

Welcome back!!!

I got bored...
Nothing else to do today, so decided to visit...

[Coffee Dog]

.....

And as with hunting, the bullet needs to damage vital organs, or arteries...
So adequate penetration is necessary...

[Elliott]

I am convinced putting bunches of holes in the attackers chest very quickly is the answer. If nothing else, the perp will bleed out before he beats you to death with your empty weapon.

Originally Posted by Cat-o-matic

I want to give you energy experts something to think about!

I have a hunting friend who shot a medium size deer -broadside right thru the heart---the deer ran aprox. 105 feet before the deer fell and died! The rifle ammo used has 2000+ foot pounds of energy!

Still feel confident using your handgun?

Your shot placement better be exact otherwise you will need multiple shots--whether its a 9mm, 40 cal. or 45cal.-pistol!

I speak from experience as a former Marine Sniper!
Until you have been there the rest is but opinions!

Great post, Cat-o-matic... nice avatar, too!!!

Originally Posted by Elliott

I am convinced putting bunches of holes in the attackers chest very quickly is the answer. If nothing else, the perp will bleed out before he beats you to death with your empty weapon.

My philosophy, also...
I want a handgun round that meets the 12" minimum (I actually prefer 13-15"), expands well and consistantly (I use the Ranger RA9T), has a 'cutting action' (Ranger)... and I want my handgun to be ergonomic and high-capacity (Glock 17)...

After that, I agree with rapid, well-placed hits...

[uz2bUSMC]

I have a hunting friend who shot a medium size deer -broadside right thru the heart---the deer ran aprox. 105 feet before the deer fell and died! The rifle ammo used has 2000+ foot pounds of energy!

Still feel confident using your handgun?

Yep...