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Old 04-13-2015, 14:02   #21
ChuteTheMall
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Because if cops were ninjas the media would ask "why didn't you just kick the gun out of his hand?"

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Old 04-13-2015, 14:07   #22
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Originally Posted by twoblackbelts View Post
Question mark would not fit.

I've always thought it should. My eldest brotherr has 3 blackbelts, and he's never shot anyone or hurt them during an arrest because of his schooling. (He's a deputy).

I vote yes.
I almost wrote a serious response, before I noticed the name.
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Old 04-13-2015, 14:16   #23
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From what I've seen of people with and without martial arts training, in real fights - it might be some minor help, but you can't really learn to fight. You can learn techniques your whole life, but I have never seen anybody so good at them that they really mattered in a real fight.

I was watching a western, yesterday, and Sam Elliott told a fellow (more or less):"you know the difference between Clay Allison or Wes Hardin and everybody else? Not that they were better shots - they were drunken louts - but they were willing to murder another man." That's what it all comes down to, as I have said for decades. I've seen a high school kid with zero training win a tough man contest against martial artists and boxers and older, bigger men. The difference is, he wanted to hurt them more than he wanted to avoid getting hurt.

Learn that and you can win fights, I guarantee it.
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Old 04-13-2015, 16:45   #24
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post



Then they really don't have an understanding of what reality based training actually is or what it entails. Or they've never seen a good program or just parrot what others with little/no experience on the net have recited to further their own MMA agenda.

With all due respect. Actually most of parroting I hear comes from the reality based guys. Things like "you should never go to the ground, what about multiple attackers, or that dirty tactics such as eye gouges, small joint manipulations, biting ect. will nullify the people that train within a certain rule set."

I believe that there are a lot of good reality based programs out there, what they teach works quite well most of the time when dealing with untrained people. But I think people are fooling themselves if they think going to a seminar, annual DT training or going to a krav class twice a week can compare to someone who consistently trains in a alive art like MMA,BJJ,MT, Boxing or judo. YMMV.
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Old 04-13-2015, 17:35   #25
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post





Sparring is great for sport where you have a single, unarmed opponent who is required to obey the same rule set as you've agreed to obey within the context of an artificial environment. For self defense it is not only sub-standard but detrimental to sound training. For all the reasons I've previously stated in my linked article.



Only within their rule set.
Alive training. sparring, rolling, reality based padded assault training is what separates fact from theory. what works and what doesn't. Without it, it would be like a baseball player who just hits in the batting cage or a swimmer that never goes in over his head. You can get the movements down but you would never really learn what works and what doesn't without it. Its easy to get your timing hitting a bag or practicing a choke on a semi resisting person, Its a whole different deal when practicing against full resistance.
By the way. I have friends and co workers that train in
RBMAs and Sport based MAs. I have no doubt that the reality based guys I know would not stand a chance against the sport based guys I know. Even without rules. Because of sparring/rolling there timing is just to good.

Last edited by fg17; 04-13-2015 at 17:56..
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:14   #26
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Originally Posted by fg17 View Post
With all due respect. Actually most of parroting I hear comes from the reality based guys. Things like "you should never go to the ground, what about multiple attackers, or that dirty tactics such as eye gouges, small joint manipulations, biting ect. will nullify the people that train within a certain rule set."
And you think this is incorrect?

Sport based martial arts train, generally speaking, for one opponent.

So in a sport setting....this is great:

The Martial Arts Forum

In a street setting...not so much:

The Martial Arts Forum

So let's expound on the don't go to the ground mantra for a moment. As I mention in my article, in a MMA/BJJ setting there is no danger in going to the ground and in fact, it is often preferred by many competitors. And why is this? Mainly because they know the other guy isn't armed, isn't going to bite or gouge them or try to crush their testicles or punch them in the throat. They also don't have to worry about three of the guys buddies jumping in the ring. They also don't have to worry about being on anything other than a flat, dry, level, soft surface that is well lit. And they can count on a nice break in the action to get a drink, get a pep talk, maybe some quick medical attention etc. And if the going gets to rough they can always tap out.

Is any of that like real life? Of course it isn't. This is why reality based training excels in this area. It wasn't designed for an artificial venue. It was designed for a chaotic, ever-changing situation. It should be based upon likely scenarios that one will encounter in an actual attack. It should provide options and opportunities that are never present in a sport setting.

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I believe that there are a lot of good reality based programs out there, what they teach works quite well most of the time when dealing with untrained people. But I think people are fooling themselves if they think going to a seminar, annual DT training or going to a krav class twice a week can compare to someone who consistently trains in a alive art like MMA,BJJ,MT, Boxing or judo. YMMV.
Real life doesn't back up what you wish to believe however. For example, WWII combatives as taught by folks like Fairbair, O'Neill, Applegate, Sikes, Nelson, Cestari etc is one of the most brutal systems ever devised. And it is stupidly simple i.e. gross motor skill and more importantly retained in long term memory. And the training was extremely short in duration. Yet those that learned the system demonstrated in many instances the ability to overcome attackers (even armed) decades later in civilian life with no additional training. And they were advanced in age as well. This is well known in combative circles. Boatman Edged Weapon Defense for example is statistically the most effective edged weapon system currently available. It is one of the few that has actual, documented statistical date from real world armed attacks. Yet the training is ridiculously short. The key is gross motor skills and the flinch response and the ability to retain/use the training in long term memory. SPEAR is the same way. That's why many L.E. agencies and military units use these systems.

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Alive training. sparring, rolling, reality based padded assault training is what separates fact from theory. what works and what doesn't. Without it, it would be like a baseball player who just hits in the batting cage or a swimmer that never goes in over his head. You can get the movements down but you would never really learn what works and what doesn't without it. Its easy to get your timing hitting a bag or practicing a choke on a semi resisting person, Its a whole different deal when practicing against full resistance.
By the way. I have friends and co workers that train in
RBMAs and Sport based MAs. I have no doubt that the reality based guys I know would not stand a chance against the sport based guys I know. Even without rules. Because of sparring/rolling there timing is just to good.
This is telling me that you really don't know what a RBSD system actually is because it is alive, chaotic, non-scripted etc. I don't know what your buddies train in, but it isn't a good RBSD system if they can't take out a sport guy in a non-sport setting. I'd rather fight a sport guy i.e. MMA/BJJ/TKD/Boxing etc than a WWII combatives guy any day of the week. Not to put them down, sports-only guys are tough folks and I have all the respect in the world for them. I simply don't fight their fight. And that's the problem when trying to compare the two. Normally folks think of the SD guy in a sport setting but that isn't what they've trained for. It's an apple to orange comparison. I'd expect the SD guy to lose in a sport setting, but if they're losing in a street setting then they aren't getting the real deal training.
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Last edited by Deputydave; 04-14-2015 at 06:38..
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:44   #27
fg17
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
And you think this is incorrect?

Sport based martial arts train, generally speaking, for one opponent.

So in a sport setting....this is great:

The Martial Arts Forum

In a street setting...not so much:

The Martial Arts Forum

So let's expound on the don't go to the ground mantra for a moment. As I mention in my article, in a MMA/BJJ setting there is no danger in going to the ground and in fact, it is often preferred by many competitors. And why is this? Mainly because they know the other guy isn't armed, isn't going to bite or gouge them or try to crush their testicles or punch them in the throat. They also don't have to worry about three of the guys buddies jumping in the ring. They also don't have to worry about being on anything other than a flat, dry, level, soft surface that is well lit. And they can count on a nice break in the action to get a drink, get a pep talk, maybe some quick medical attention etc. And if the going gets to rough they can always tap out.

.
Don't forget broken glass, lava and aids needles. Myself and many others just don't drink the the reality based kool aid like some. Im being kind, go over to bullshido.com sometime and see what a lot of experienced people have to say about most of the rbsd training. As far as going to the ground it not the death sentence some say it is. There are times it makes sense. A smaller person skilled in basic jiu jitsu can control a larger, more powerfull person on the ground. a jj guy can control position with little risk to himself on the ground and the ultimate fight stopper, the choke can be applied easier from the ground. Yes multiple attacker are a problem on the ground, but there not so great on your feet either. Also in the street the jj guy can also gouge and bite, he can just do it from a better position because of his skill at controlling his attacker. I not only speak from my personnel experience, but from others much more knowledgeable than myself.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:13   #28
fg17
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
And you think this is incorrect?




This is telling me that you really don't know what a RBSD system actually is because it is alive, chaotic, non-scripted etc. I don't know what your buddies train in, but it isn't a good RBSD system if they can't take out a sport guy in a non-sport setting. I'd rather fight a sport guy i.e. MMA/BJJ/TKD/Boxing etc than a WWII combatives guy any day of the week. Not to put them down, sports-only guys are tough folks and I have all the respect in the world for them. I simply don't fight their fight. And that's the problem when trying to compare the two. Normally folks think of the SD guy in a sport setting but that isn't what they've trained for. It's an apple to orange comparison. I'd expect the SD guy to lose in a sport setting, but if they're losing in a street setting then they aren't getting the real deal training.
People always say that " You don't know the real RBSD" or "True krav like its taught to Israeli commandos" ect. sounds like the REAL deadly systems are far and few between. Like I said earlier unlike many who believe RBSD systems are a gimmick or a marketing scheme, I think they have merit. Mainly against unskilled, but very dangerous attackers out in the mean streets. Lord knows outside the gym myself and my co workers have used both RBSD type stuff right along side sportbased MAs. But I also think people are fooling themselves thinking that RBSD is the equal to alive sport based MAs. That's not meant to be a slam on rbsd training. RBSD is just not usually trained as hard or as often as SB training. Like I said before YMMV and no disrespect, I can see your very passionate when it comes to reality based training and that's great. I try to keep an open mind to any type of training. We both know these arguments have been going on for decades and will probably continue. Take care.

Last edited by fg17; 04-14-2015 at 09:23..
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:10   #29
Deputydave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fg17 View Post
I try to keep an open mind to any type of training.
How are you open minded when in your previous post you stated this:

Quote:
Don't forget broken glass, lava and aids needles. Myself and many others just don't drink the the reality based kool aid like some.
It sounds like you're more sarcastic than open minded. No offense intended, but it seems you have a preconceived idea with very little actual knowledge or experience on this topic. I've been in uniform for 30 years and in the martial arts in general for 38 years. There is simply a profound difference in the needs/requirements for each training methodology. And neither training methodology is sufficient for the non-intended purpose i.e. SD training is not sufficient for competition and sport training is not sufficient for SD.

Quote:
RBSD is just not usually trained as hard or as often as SB training.
Again, no offense intended, but this demonstrates you have an incorrect view of what I'm talking about. It's apparent that we're talking apples and oranges. Properly trained scenario-based training will run the range of going through a scenario and not even breaking a sweat all the way to needing to puke due to the stress and physical output needed.

The training will allow you opportunities to attempt de-escalation, escape/evasion, use of weapons (improvised and concealed), terrain, diversion as well as hands-on skills (stun-n-run, flinch response, fight-or-flight, adrenaline response, O.O.D.A. etc). Sport training doesn't cover these things because they simply don't need it for the environment in which they compete.

It's like this, in a MMA competition you pretty much know what to expect i.e. I'm unarmed and so are you. It's just you and me. We're both going by the same rules. We both have the same goal in mind.

In an attack the factors all change:

Am I armed?
Are you armed?

Am I alone?
Are you alone?

Can I talk the situation down?

Can I escape?

Is there something in the area I can use to my advantage i.e. barrier, door, attract attention etc?

Are there additional dangers present i.e. terrain, traffic, body unfriendly objects etc?

Bad guys goals are to hurt you, perhaps worse.

Good guy/gals goal is to escape the situation and go home in the same condition he woke up in.

The methods/skills used for each to achieve those goals will be chaotic, fluid, dynamic and quick. Statistically speaking, the average attack lasts 7 seconds with injury occurring in the first 3 seconds. Additionally, SD training covers how to respond after being injured as well as the legal aftermath of a situation.

So we're not talking about who is 'tougher', we're talking about a training methodology that better prepares a person to achieve the intended goal.
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Old 04-14-2015, 19:20   #30
fg17
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
How are you open minded when in your previous post you stated this:



It sounds like you're more sarcastic than open minded. No offense intended, but it seems you have a preconceived idea with very little actual knowledge or experience on this topic. I've been in uniform for 30 years and in the martial arts in general for 38 years. There is simply a profound difference in the needs/requirements for each training methodology. And neither training methodology is sufficient for the non-intended purpose i.e. SD training is not sufficient for competition and sport training is not sufficient for SD.



Again, no offense intended, but this demonstrates you have an incorrect view of what I'm talking about. It's apparent that we're talking apples and oranges. Properly trained scenario-based training will run the range of going through a scenario and not even breaking a sweat all the way to needing to puke due to the stress and physical output needed.

The training will allow you opportunities to attempt de-escalation, escape/evasion, use of weapons (improvised and concealed), terrain, diversion as well as hands-on skills (stun-n-run, flinch response, fight-or-flight, adrenaline response, O.O.D.A. etc). Sport training doesn't cover these things because they simply don't need it for the environment in which they compete.

It's like this, in a MMA competition you pretty much know what to expect i.e. I'm unarmed and so are you. It's just you and me. We're both going by the same rules. We both have the same goal in mind.

In an attack the factors all change:

Am I armed?
Are you armed?

Am I alone?
Are you alone?

Can I talk the situation down?

Can I escape?

Is there something in the area I can use to my advantage i.e. barrier, door, attract attention etc?

Are there additional dangers present i.e. terrain, traffic, body unfriendly objects etc?

Bad guys goals are to hurt you, perhaps worse.

Good guy/gals goal is to escape the situation and go home in the same condition he woke up in.

The methods/skills used for each to achieve those goals will be chaotic, fluid, dynamic and quick. Statistically speaking, the average attack lasts 7 seconds with injury occurring in the first 3 seconds. Additionally, SD training covers how to respond after being injured as well as the legal aftermath of a situation.

So we're not talking about who is 'tougher', we're talking about a training methodology that better prepares a person to achieve the intended goal.
Yes I was being a bit sarcastic, I apologize. I just do not find many of the claims made by the RBSD crowd to be 100 percent correct in my experience. perhaps I have not trained in the proper rbsd system. Most of my MA back ground the last 20 yrs has been in TJJ, BJJ and submission grappling. also have studied various TMAs. My RBSD background is limited to a brief stint in Krav Maga. Very very few of the krav guys would have been able to hang with even the lower end JJ guys, in the gym or on the street. But yes you are correct, SD entails more than just fighting. Also for the last 20 yrs I have worked bouncing/security jobs in a party town. Bars, party campgrounds and concerts. Two things I have noticed, My sport based Jiu Jitsu has saved me from great bodily harm and many of the RBSD techniques like groin strikes, gouges, biting, stomps and various strikes are good supplements but could never replace my sport based art, they just are not as effective. I really do try to keep an open mind and JJ/submission wrestling will always be my core art. Yes I work in somewhat of a bubble and my exposure to RBSD is limited, what do you suggest is a good RBSD program? I am getting older and its always nice to learn a few new tricks.

Last edited by fg17; 04-15-2015 at 04:44.. Reason: Mis spelling
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Old 04-14-2015, 20:19   #31
agtman
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More so than donuts ...

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SHOULD MARTIAL ARTS TRAINING BE MANDATORY FOR COPS
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Originally Posted by twoblackbelts View Post
I've always thought it should. My eldest brother has 3 blackbelts, and he's never shot anyone or hurt them during an arrest because of his schooling. (He's a deputy).
Well, of course, silly.

Specifically, any young guy or gal aspiring to be a street cop should be required to achieve the equivalent of a black belt in current MMA-type training - which is, more or less, the best smattering or smorgasbord of basic techniques from across all the worthiest "martial arts."

Such training would, in turn, result in about the same percentage of successful suspect arrests ... with the added benefit of a decrease in the number of suspects being shot in order to subdue their resistance or flight.

We would, of course, have to accept that a certain percentage of suspects will still get shot - namely those who are actually armed and shooting at officers, or otherwise attempting to kill them with some type of weapon.

But a high level of mandatory MMA training would certainly result in America's street warriors in blue resorting to their firearms less and their fists & feet more.

I mean, haven't we learned anything from Steven Seagal movies?


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