GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-09-2009, 16:46   #1
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,342
Stopping Active Shooters Immediately

Here is an excellent article on why if's necessary for the first responding officer or civilian to immediately engage any active shooter.

http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...ctive-killers/

A few high points:

• 98% of active killers act alone.

• 80% have long guns, 75% have multiple weapons (about 3 per incident), and they sometimes bring hundreds of extra rounds of ammunition to the shooting site.

• Despite such heavy armaments and an obsession with murder at close range, they have an average hit rate of less than 50%.

• They strike “stunned, defenseless innocents via surprise ambush. On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves.”

• “They absolutely control life and death until they stop at their leisure or are stopped.” They do not take hostages, do not negotiate.

• They generally try to avoid police, do not hide or lie in wait for officers and “typically fold quickly upon armed confrontation.”

• 90% commit suicide on-site. “Surrender or escape attempts are unlikely.”

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 21:17   #2
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


Thanks for the post.

You know you'll soon be under attack for being such a cowboy. A rambo. A wannabe... ya know, nothing new. :upeye:

All I know is that if I am at the nursing home/mall/university/church/restaurant/school when the shots start up, I'll it could be moving towards the shooter and not away.

We'll be the wanna-bes together. Dead or alive, we'll still be heros, not ball-less biatches defending our cowardness with intellectual pockycock.
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 08:11   #3
TINCUP AL
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: COLORADO
Posts: 63
Thanks for the post. I think some of the comments afterwards were more informative and thought provoking than the article itself.
TINCUP AL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 08:26   #4
chuckman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 3,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoneCop View Post
Thanks for the post.

You know you'll soon be under attack for being such a cowboy. A rambo. A wannabe... ya know, nothing new. :upeye:

All I know is that if I am at the nursing home/mall/university/church/restaurant/school when the shots start up, I'll it could be moving towards the shooter and not away.

We'll be the wanna-bes together. Dead or alive, we'll still be heros, not ball-less biatches defending our cowardness with intellectual pockycock.
Who the hell wants to be a 'hero'? I just want to be alive. Have you been around an active shooting? My priority is me and my family, everyone else is a distant second. If I can do something to the shooter, that is gravy, but not job one. But this is a good article.
__________________
Regarding the 1911: "The gun was designed to function. If it's built to the proper specs...it'll run. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice." 1911Tuner
chuckman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 08:31   #5
TINCUP AL
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: COLORADO
Posts: 63
I think this post is directed towards the lone officer responding as first on the scene, not regular joe out shopping with his family. The priorities of life as given to an officer puts him second from the bottom. Not on top.
( edited to add that in my opinion this is not being a "hero", it is just what needs to be done to save lives )

Last edited by TINCUP AL; 04-10-2009 at 09:05..
TINCUP AL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 09:00   #6
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Who the hell wants to be a 'hero'? I just want to be alive. Have you been around an active shooting?
Exactly. Dead heroes are just dead, and usually only heroes in their own mind. You don't save folks by getting yourself killed. And it is a pretty good bet some of the commentors not only have never been around an active shooter, they have never been in a gunfight at all.
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 09:23   #7
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,668
Couple of things I always point out when this article surfaces.

One, they are playing a numbers game going by averages and statistics. Kind of like the stats that say the average gunfight is over in less than a half a dozen rounds yet how many people refuse to carry a revolver because they are limited in capacity.

Two, if you go in and get killed by yourself, at least for an officer you have to remember that not only are your guns and ammo now available to the suspect but so is your radio. How would you like to be officer #2 showing up with the suspect knowing where you and any other information you put out on the radio?
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 09:27   #8
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckman View Post
Who the hell wants to be a 'hero'?
I sure as hell don't want to live as a coward.
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 09:33   #9
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckman View Post
Have you been around an active shooting?
I've had a few people try to hurt my feelings...

Quote:
But this is a good article.
it is it will generate a lot of discussion.
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 10:21   #10
Hedo1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,261
“Officers need to understand valid military principles that apply to these calls, such as speed, surprise and violence of action,” Borsch insists. “They need to learn how to close in and finish the fight with aggression, having and keeping the ‘momentum of battle’ on their side. The idea is to keep the adversary off-balance by forcing him always to react to your actions, rather than, after contact, reacting to him.”

He is telling the responders to get inside the OODA loop of the shooter. This serves two purposes. It distracts the shooter from his task which is killing more people. It also makes him react to the responder rather then initiating the pace and tempo of the confrontation.

I think this is a good strategy. Might not be the safest route for the responder but it seems like it would be effective in shutting down the shooter. Would like to see some practical examples.
__________________
Every Saint has a past...every Sinner a future.
Hedo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 10:47   #11
chuckman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 3,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoneCop View Post
I've had a few people try to hurt my feelings...


it is it will generate a lot of discussion.
I am not talking about being a coward. Keeping me and my family alive is plenty heroic. I think the article is aimed toward LEOs, but good info nonetheless. The reason I asked re: having been in a shooting, I remember going downrange for the first time (mil, not LEO), thinking all sorts of heroic things, only to see myself turn into someone very afraid, falling back on training (and yes, that training did make me run to the sounds, not away). I am not gonna say I cried, but I will say that if I did, there no longer any photographic evidence.
__________________
Regarding the 1911: "The gun was designed to function. If it's built to the proper specs...it'll run. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice." 1911Tuner
chuckman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 16:27   #12
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,342
All I can say is this guys. The SOP of getting all the SWAT team together, get intel on the setup of the building, and then waiting till the shooting is over has so far been 100 percent to late.

A few have tried. One at the Tacoma, Washington Mall, and another at the Tyler Texas court house. Both did get shot to pieces, but at least the one in Tyler forced the killer to break contact and leave (Mark Wilson was his name of the man who gave is life) and definatly saved lives.

The SWAT SOP waiting till the shooting is over has not save any that I know of.

We will see if any LEO actually tries the new tactic.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 16:31   #13
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoneCop View Post
I sure as hell don't want to live as a coward.
The proper order is:
  1. Live hero
  2. Dead coward
  3. Dead hero
  4. Live coward

Jeff Cooper wrote that. Just injecting some history.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 16:32   #14
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
The SWAT SOP waiting till the shooting is over has not save any that I know of.

We will see if any LEO actually tries the new tactic.

Deaf
You might wanna get brought up to speed on SOPs before you pontificate on this one.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 22:12   #15
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
You might wanna get brought up to speed on SOPs before you pontificate on this one.
+1. Way too many folks try to talk about way too much stuff they have absolutely no knowledge about or understanding, particularly when it comes to LE ops, tactics, etc.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 04-10-2009 at 22:45..
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2009, 05:07   #16
Beeman
NRA MEMBER
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OH
Posts: 669
Send a message via AIM to Beeman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
You might wanna get brought up to speed on SOPs before you pontificate on this one.
Yep, Columbine changed things for the departments around me. Even the little Township PD here trains for active shooters.
Beeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2009, 21:30   #17
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
The proper order is:
  1. Live hero
  2. Dead coward
  3. Dead hero
  4. Live coward

Jeff Cooper wrote that. Just injecting some history.

I need to read more of his writings. Thanks for sharing.
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 01:13   #18
MTPD
Senior Member
 
MTPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 2,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Exactly. Dead heroes are just dead, and usually only heroes in their own mind. You don't save folks by getting yourself killed. And it is a pretty good bet some of the commentors not only have never been around an active shooter, they have never been in a gunfight at all.
Oh no, here we go again!

The object is NOT to be a dead hero, but to take out the criminal ASAP so as to save innocents. As I have mentioned multiple times, the "wait for SWAT" mentality didn't exist prior to SWAT.

In those days the first responders (on my high crime area department at least) immediately confronted armed felons, and if the felons didn't surrender instantly they were shot. And "instantly" was a mater of seconds, not minutes, hours or days. And guess what David, it always worked just fine = no dead heroes, just dead or wounded felons.
__________________
My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.
MTPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 09:48   #19
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Oh no, here we go again!
Yep, here we go again. MTPD will now share with us his mystical made-up adventures in MTPDland.
Quote:
on my high crime area department at least
That same department you have not been able to convince any real cops you ever served on? OK.
Quote:
And guess what David, it always worked just fine = no dead heroes, just dead or wounded felons.
Yes, we've heard it all before. You and yours were ahead of all other agencies in the country and never did anyting wrong and were famous for outdrawing the BGs and you saved the President and fought off hordes of gangbangers and won all sorts of awards and such. Too bad none of it has ever been shown to have the slightest shred of proof.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 04-17-2009 at 09:53..
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 19:01   #20
Tailhunter
Glockman
 
Tailhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC/VA State Line
Posts: 5,734
Well, ya know, people will do what people will do. Some will help, some will run. The ones that run will use their families as an excuse. The ones that help will have no excuse, just a need to do the right thing according to them. So just as the caliber wars rage on, so will the discussions on what to do.

Right or wrong ... we will all do something.
__________________
Certified Glock Armorer

I am not a sheep . . . I am neither weak nor afraid. If you try to harm me the consequences of those actions rest solely on your shoulders. -TH
NEVER get involved, hide and shake or piss and run. -Gen. Consensus
Tailhunter is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:59.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 817
171 Members
646 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42