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Old 02-05-2009, 10:31   #1
galupo
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Sending a letter to NYPD licensing need help

Note this is a cross post with ar15 forum.

Having reviewed a few boards I haven't gotten a satisfactory response from posters on a couple of questions

1) Federal Transportation laws as it relates to NYC licensees'
2) Why is there a 3 month Wait time for pistol purchase orders on top of the 3 month wait period to apply for a purchase order.
3) What is the proper way to apply a C and R FFL in NYC.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
This is a first cut unedited draft.
I will be directing this letter to the NYPD licensing Division.



I have several questions and concerns regarding the issuing of pistol purchase orders, the transportation of firearms across state lines and the ability to obtain a curios and relics federal firearms license.
I have concerns about the transportation of firearms across state lines from one jurisdiction where I can legally posses one(New York City) to another jurisdiction(Florida) where I may legally posses one. I understand federal law Title 18 § 926A(Interstate transportation of firearms) Protects an individual from transporting a firearm from any place where he/she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he/she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm. What is the NYPD’s stance on this law and NYC licensees’ transporting firearms from their residence to another jurisdiction where they can legally own a firearm provided they follow local and federal guidelines for transporting the firearm (Unloaded in a locked container)? I do a bit of personal travel mostly to Florida and I also intend on taking a few Black Water Pistol classes for my Birthday it would be prohibitively expensive to FFL (Ship) the firearms back and forth to dealers in NYC and my destination. I have attached a US Department of Justice opinion in reference to several incidents involving transportation of firearms to and from John F. Kennedy Airport.

I understand that in 2006 the New York City Council passed legislation to limit one pistol purchase every 3 months. In dropping off my request for a purchase order I was informed that it would take an additional 10-12 weeks making the actual time 6 months to purchase a firearm. Why does it take 10-12 weeks to process a purchase order? I have become very interested in shooting in matches a 6 month turnaround time would be a great hindrance to my new hobby.

I would like to apply for a curios and relics federal firearms license in order to obtain discounted ammunition and supplies. I have contacted the ATF field office in Brooklyn in regards to this matter and they have informed it that the box requiring law enforcement sign off should be signed off by the local precinct. What is the NYPD’s stance on obtaining a curios and relics federal firearms license? Is the ATF directing me in the appropriate direction for sign off and if not who should I go to?

Any answers\assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
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Old 02-15-2009, 21:14   #2
Ducowti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galupo View Post

I understand federal law Title 18 § 926A(Interstate transportation of firearms) Protects an individual from transporting a firearm from any place where he/she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he/she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm. What is the NYPD’s stance on this law and NYC licensees’ transporting firearms from their residence to another jurisdiction where they can legally own a firearm provided they follow local and federal guidelines for transporting the firearm (Unloaded in a locked container)?
Under 18 § 926A you *should* be ok assuming of course you satisfy the criteria thereunder, but you must understand that NYPD seems to either ignore or be ignorant of firearms laws applying to non-NYPD LEOs.

If you do travel in/through NYC or it's airports be sure to have printed copies of 18 § 926A and any other applicable laws. NYPD has been known to jam up lawfully carrying/transporting/etc citizens and even LEOs carrying under LEOSA/HR218
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Old 02-15-2009, 21:55   #3
Dean
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Don't do that.
Don't write any long, intricate letters to the license division. Go down there and talk to them. Bring your written questions, and get them answered in person. Get some guys card, and call him for advice as you go through the steps required to do what you want to do. Good luck and get out your wallet.
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Old 02-19-2009, 23:12   #4
galupo
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I really want something in writing from some one in charge at licensing.
So if I get stopped I can pull out a copy of said letter and keep the original in my safety deposit box.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
Don't do that.
Don't write any long, intricate letters to the license division. Go down there and talk to them. Bring your written questions, and get them answered in person. Get some guys card, and call him for advice as you go through the steps required to do what you want to do. Good luck and get out your wallet.
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Old 03-01-2009, 14:49   #5
rugerp95
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good luck nypd licesing div officers are well know for slowing the process as much as possible. The plan is to discourage you from buying or owning firearms, by making it as big of a hassle as possible this has been going on for years back in the sixties it could take several years to get a permit untill somebody sued
now they have a time limit so they look for reasons to extend it
like you forgot to dot an i (now your app is incomplete)
with comrade bloomgerg in charge it has to be worse now
I walked away a long time ago again good luck and remember the bs come election time
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Old 03-19-2009, 14:37   #6
Hdog83
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First post on GT - yeah!

First off, I more or less agree with rugerp95's sentiments...all of the NYC firearms processes (pistol licensing, rifle & shotgun licensing, registration, purchase authorizations, inspections, the NYC AWB, you name it) are designed to discourage firearms ownership as strongly as possible. But I'm still here...for now.... Thanks for helping to fight the good fight by wading through the morass that is lawful NYC firearms ownership.

Now, on to the original questions. First, let's get a few things out on the table. 18 USC §926A, commonly known as the Firearms Owners Protection Act or FOPA, does provide a safe harbor for interstate transfer (NOT concealed carry) of handguns as you describe, galupo. However, it's not at all that straightforward for NYC premises handgun licensees. (I'm being presumptuous, but I'm assuming you don't have a NYC business carry or limited business carry license.) In a nutshell, the NYPD License Division holds, and the NYS Apellate Division has concurred, that FOPA is "inapplicable" for NYC premises licensees (see Beach v. Kelly, decided in June 2008 here http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3ds...2008_05814.htm).

The "logic" they use is as follows:
Administrative
Under the restrictions inherent to their licenses, NYC premises licensees may not take their licensed handguns outside of NYS without specific written permission from the Lic. Div. So, whether FOPA would or wouldn't "protect" an otherwise compliant trip between NYC and Florida (or any other "free state" destination) is irrelevant -- without the express written permission of the Lic. Div., the licensee would be violating the restrictions on his or her license, which license would therefore be subject to suspension or revocation if and when the Lic. Div. discovered it.

Legal
The Appellate Division court held (incorrectly, I believe) that premises licenses do not allow the licensee to "lawfully possess and carry" his or her handgun(s) at the origin of the FOPA journey, as is required by the FOPA language. They interpreted the phrase "lawfully possess and carry" in FOPA as something akin to having 'full CCW rights throughout the [locality | state]' on each end of the FOPA journey. Using that "logic", the court held that FOPA isn't a valid safe harbor for interstate trips by NYC premises licensees transporting their handguns. (Yes, the court ignored the fact that premises licensees can "lawfully possess and carry" their handguns within their premises, which is the origin of any FOPA trip...they clearly were trying to achieve a predetermined result here.)
So, how does one get written permission from the NYPD License Division to take one's handgun(s) outside of NYS? I haven't tried it yet myself, but I'm pretty sure the answer lies in the Rules of the City of New York (RCNY), which can be found online here http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/entered.htm. Specifically, the provisions for receiving authorization from the NYPD to transport or deliver weapons into or within the City of New York can be found in Chapter 16 of Title 38 of the RCNY. Although the rules appear to be targeted towards persons & businesses "shipping" firearms to/from NYC, they do seem to apply to licensees transporting their firearms.

I won't repeat all of the rules here, but will give a few highlights:

- the term "weapon" includes a "firearm," "rifle," "shotgun," or "machine-gun," as those terms are defined in §265.00 of the New York State Penal Law and shall also include anything that is defined as an "assault weapon" in §10-301 of the New York City Administrative Code

- there is a carveout from the rules for a "transitory shipment". HOWEVER, the carveout is limited as follows:
§16-01 Definitions. .... Transitory Shipment. For purposes of this chapter, the term "transitory shipment" shall mean a shipment which begins outside of the City of New York, and moves continuously and without interruption through the City of New York to a final destination outside of the City of New York. A shipment which is within the City of New York and involves any off-loading of the weapons from one means of transportation, followed by subsequent on-loading of the weapons to another means of transportation, shall not be considered a transitory shipment.
This would appear to be the source of the reported cases of non-NYC residents being arrested and having their guns seized at NYC airports when driving in and walking up to the airport counter, thinking they were protected by FOPA.

- the permission procedure mandates that the request must be received at least 10 calendar days prior to the transportation within the City of New York


On the second question, "Why does it take 10-12 weeks to process a purchase order?", I think the answer is "because they can". There's nothing I've found in the rules or statutes that requires them to act "promptly" or within any specific time frame. NYPD License Division personnel claim that they "re-do your background check" for each new purchase authorization, but who really knows. Also, I know of at least one person who is going on 3 or 4 months now, waiting for a purchase authorization to come through.


On the third question regarding C&R licenses, I have nothing to offer.


General comment: I'd be cautious about raising your profile with the License Division by asking pointed questions in a letter. This is the classic example of an effectively unaccountable bureaucracy gone wild, with the added benefit that, for all intents and purposes, they are actively looking to find reasons to revoke the very licenses they've issued. Call me paranoid, but I do my best to stay off their radar.

And, last but not least, a suggestion/question: a group of us have a dedicated NYC Licensing FAQ on another forum (think of another prominent small arms manufacturer from a German-speaking country), complete with lively discussion of all of these types of topics. You probably want to find and read the NYC Licensing FAQ forum thread on that website, as it might prove helpful/informative. I'm a noob here on GT, but I assume the policy here is not to provide direct links to other discussion forums, but if that's not the case, I'll be happy to pass the info along in another post.
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Old 04-30-2009, 22:44   #7
Hdog83
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Update - transport out of state is not allowed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hdog83 View Post
So, how does one get written permission from the NYPD License Division to take one's handgun(s) outside of NYS? I haven't tried it yet myself, but I'm pretty sure the answer lies in the Rules of the City of New York (RCNY), which can be found online here http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/entered.htm. Specifically, the provisions for receiving authorization from the NYPD to transport or deliver weapons into or within the City of New York can be found in Chapter 16 of Title 38 of the RCNY. Although the rules appear to be targeted towards persons & businesses "shipping" firearms to/from NYC, they do seem to apply to licensees transporting their firearms.
I was wrong on this point. Apparently, NYPD License Division does not grant authorization for NYC premises licensees to take their handguns outside of NYS. The report is that they "just don't do that". Sorry.
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Old 05-01-2009, 19:15   #8
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I am not a lawyer, but NYS KNOWS that my firearms are NOT in New York State. I am a NY resident and have an "UNRESTRICTED" NYS Permit. I was home and getting a duplicate (replacement) license and the clerk told me that I could not carry my guns until the new permit came back signed from the Judge. I told her that the guns were currently in North Carolina (I'm in the Army). She did tell me that I could not bring a gun into NY without having it added to my license first. I have no intention of adding more than the current 4 handguns that are "registered in NY" to that permit. The other 30 or so will never be in the Empire State.

I can not figure out why they are telling you that you can not take a gun out of NY though. Ignorance perhaps????
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Old 05-01-2009, 20:26   #9
Hdog83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennwj View Post
I am not a lawyer, but NYS KNOWS that my firearms are NOT in New York State. I am a NY resident and have an "UNRESTRICTED" NYS Permit. I was home and getting a duplicate (replacement) license and the clerk told me that I could not carry my guns until the new permit came back signed from the Judge. I told her that the guns were currently in North Carolina (I'm in the Army). She did tell me that I could not bring a gun into NY without having it added to my license first. I have no intention of adding more than the current 4 handguns that are "registered in NY" to that permit. The other 30 or so will never be in the Empire State.

I can not figure out why they are telling you that you can not take a gun out of NY though. Ignorance perhaps????
The restriction on interstate handgun transportation by premises licensees is only applicable to premises handgun licenses issued by the NYPD to NYC residents. It doesn't apply to any handgun licenses issued in any other county of NYS.

I infer that you're not a NYC resident, because you have an "UNRESTRICTED NYS license". "Regular" NYC residents can't get those, for all intents and purposes. As a result of your non-NYC license, there are no NYS-level prohibitions on the otherwise-lawful interstate transportation of your handguns. By the way, you're wise to keep the bulk of your handguns outside of the state, especially in light of the latest round of anti-RKBA legislation that has just passed the Assembly and is headed to the Senate.

Behold the beauty of NYC vs. the rest of NYS. The NYC "Clown" Council gets to pass its own, more restrictive "feel good" laws regarding firearms, thereby allowing the elected officials to stand up and beat their chests over their "tough on crime" actions, none of which actually have anything to do with crime prevention or criminals. It doesn't help that the licensing authority in NYC is the Police Commissioner of the NYPD, which is a position appointed by the Mayor. (The punative administrative nonsense that NYC handgun licensees have to endure is thanks to this arrangement.) In the rest of NYS, judges are [usually | always] the licensing authorities for their counties. Judges are elected by popular vote, which makes them perhaps a bit more responsive to their local constituencies.

BTW, thanks for your service - we appreciate your sacrifices. Please stay safe.
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