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Old 01-04-2010, 19:15   #1
robin303
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1st Reloads at the Range

Went to the range today. My results were mixed.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With the 700X Powder:<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>s 115 FMJ at 3.1 10 rnds all failed<o:p></o:p>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Berry</st1:State></st1:place>s 115 FMJ at 3.5 10 rnds all fired<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>s 115 FMJ at 4.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 3.1 all failed <o:p></o:p>
Speer 147 TMJ FN 3.6 all failed<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With AutoComp:<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>s 115 FMJ at 5.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 5.0 10 rnds all fired
Speer 147 TMJ FN 2.8 all fired<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
OK the ones that failed should I bump them up at 0.3 or more at a time.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Is there a trick on Hollow Points and Flat Nose. For an example I used my Fiocchi 124 XTPHP as a gage which was an average 1.075. I have never found any info on HPs or FN.<o:p></o:p>
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Old 01-04-2010, 19:23   #2
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what manual are you using?

did you use your barrel as a gage to make sure your rounds chamber well?

Get youself a manual

Your rounds are very short. This makes me think your loading without a manual or your crimp is not quite right. or your not resizing correctly.
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Old 01-04-2010, 19:26   #3
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More data will help. 9MM I assume? Not familiar with a Berry Full Metal Jacket. What do you mean by "failed". What is your COAL? Last, did you crimp and how much?
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Old 01-04-2010, 19:30   #4
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Need more information, "Failed" means nothing to me.
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Old 01-04-2010, 19:37   #5
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failed.

FTF? check your oal and crimp or bullet profile
FTE? Check your charge?
Fail to fire? seat your primers fully
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Old 01-04-2010, 19:44   #6
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Sounds like your rounds are not the correct length. Check the size against factory rounds you know function well using calipers. I would do a little more research before putting anymore of these rounds through your weapon.

As others have mentioned, what does 'fail' mean?

I just started reloading 45acp and haven't had a hiccup.
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Old 01-04-2010, 20:06   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robin303
Is there a trick on Hollow Points and Flat Nose. For an example I used my Fiocchi 124 XTPHP as a gage which was an average 1.075. I have never found any info on HPs or FN.
Seriously, do NOT touch your reloading press until you have purchased and read the ABC's of reloading. After you read that cover to cover, then go out and buy yourself some reloading manuals, Speer 14 comes to mind.

Forget any reloading recipes you read on the internet, buy and USE some reliable references manuals.
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Old 01-04-2010, 20:26   #8
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Originally Posted by Hydraulicman View Post
what manual are you using?

did you use your barrel as a gage to make sure your rounds chamber well?

Get youself a manual

Your rounds are very short. This makes me think your loading without a manual or your crimp is not quite right. or your not resizing correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVvrroomm View Post
Seriously, do NOT touch your reloading press until you have purchased and read the ABC's of reloading. After you read that cover to cover, then go out and buy yourself some reloading manuals, Speer 14 comes to mind.

Forget any reloading recipes you read on the internet, buy and USE some reliable references manuals.

I have to agree... doesn't sound like you have a true grasp on the info needed at this point.
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Old 01-04-2010, 21:30   #9
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Originally Posted by robin303 View Post
Went to the range today. My results were mixed.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With the 700X Powder:<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>s 115 FMJ at 3.1 10 rnds all failed<o:p></o:p>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Berry</st1:State></st1:place>s 115 FMJ at 3.5 10 rnds all fired<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>s 115 FMJ at 4.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 3.1 all failed <o:p></o:p>
Speer 147 TMJ FN 3.6 all failed<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
With AutoComp:<o:p></o:p>
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>s 115 FMJ at 5.0 10 rnds 2 FTE<o:p></o:p>
Hornady 115 HP/XTP 5.0 10 rnds all fired
Speer 147 TMJ FN 2.8 all fired<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
OK the ones that failed should I bump them up at 0.3 or more at a time.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Is there a trick on Hollow Points and Flat Nose. For an example I used my Fiocchi 124 XTPHP as a gage which was an average 1.075. I have never found any info on HPs or FN.<o:p></o:p>
Most of those that "failed" (whatever that means) are starting loads. If by failed you mean the failed to cycle the gun then it's no suprise. Mid level loads at the correct OAL are going to be your best bet. Welcome to the world of reloading. Your mistakes so far include.

1) Buying powder that is not well suited for your needs
2) Not reading a load manual so that you can understand how to interpet the data that has been given to you by me and others.
3) Rushing into buying stuff local rather then getting stuff that is better but will take a little time to arrive.

So now you have 800X and Autocomp. Two really slow powders. Get those loads up to mid level loads at the proper length. Be sure your crimp and other things are right. Be very careful you have the charge settled and throwing consistent before you start loading your completed rounds.
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Old 01-04-2010, 21:47   #10
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Most of those that "failed" (whatever that means) are starting loads. If by failed you mean the failed to cycle the gun then it's no suprise. Mid level loads at the correct OAL are going to be your best bet. Welcome to the world of reloading. Your mistakes so far include.

1) Buying powder that is not well suited for your needs
2) Not reading a load manual so that you can understand how to interpet the data that has been given to you by me and others.
3) Rushing into buying stuff local rather then getting stuff that is better but will take a little time to arrive.

So now you have 800X and Autocomp. Two really slow powders. Get those loads up to mid level loads at the proper length. Be sure your crimp and other things are right. Be very careful you have the charge settled and throwing consistent before you start loading your completed rounds.

Excellent post... very well stated. Listen to him Robin, at this moment he's making a lot of sense... unlike tomorrow morning when he's going shooting in sub-freezing temperatures.

(You'd save gas money by just climbing in your freezer and cranking off a few mags at the chocolate-chip ice cream.

Jack
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Old 01-04-2010, 21:53   #11
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Blasphemy!!! You'll earn yourself 40 lashes for treating chocolate-chip ice cream that way. You heretic.


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Excellent post... very well stated. Listen to him Robin, at this moment he's making a lot of sense... unlike tomorrow morning when he's going shooting in sub-freezing temperatures.

(You'd save gas money by just climbing in your freezer and cranking off a few mags at the chocolate-chip ice cream.

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Old 01-05-2010, 00:45   #12
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OK I have the Lyman book the web and you guys. I used the book and loaded the suggested starting grain on both powders of AutoComp and 700X. When I said failed I guess I should have said failed to eject. I painstakingly measured the powder on each round and used my calipers to measure each round. Any round that was not in .03 of 1.169 I set aside. As for crimping I’m only using half of what they said to do. I tested each round in my barrel. I’m buying powder that is in my Lyman book and I should get another reloading manual this week. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
So what I’m going to do is:<o:p></o:p>
Go to mid level loads with the powder.<o:p></o:p>
The rounds that worked fine add .03.<o:p></o:p>
Crimp more.<o:p></o:p>
Buy chocolate-chip ice cream.<o:p></o:p>
Shoot guns in the freezer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Actually I was pleased with the results. Definitely a learning curve I’m going through.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Thanks guys.<o:p></o:p>
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:00   #13
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Originally Posted by robin303 View Post
OK I have the Lyman book the web and you guys. I used the book and loaded the suggested starting grain on both powders of AutoComp and 700X. When I said failed I guess I should have said failed to eject. I painstakingly measured the powder on each round and used my calipers to measure each round. Any round that was not in .03 of 1.169 I set aside. As for crimping Im only using half of what they said to do. I tested each round in my barrel. Im buying powder that is in my Lyman book and I should get another reloading manual this week. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
So what Im going to do is:<o:p></o:p>
Go to mid level loads with the powder.<o:p></o:p>
The rounds that worked fine add .03.<o:p></o:p>
Crimp more.<o:p></o:p>
Buy chocolate-chip ice cream.<o:p></o:p>
Shoot guns in the freezer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Actually I was pleased with the results. Definitely a learning curve Im going through.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thanks guys.<o:p></o:p>
Ok. that helps a bit.

Let's take the AutoComp, since that seemed to work best of the two. Two FTE. Could be caused by several things. Since all but two worked, and you were carefull with the powder weighing, I'm going to guess you limp wristed the two FTE. A common problem with Glocks and new shooters. A loose wrist absorbes some of the recoil and prevents the gun from cycling properly. You might want to bump the loads up a bit. I generally work up .1gr at at time. Since you have a load that is working most of the time, try 10 rounds with .1gr more of AutoComp, 10 with .2gr more and 10 with .3 grains more. Now you are looking to improve accuracy. Keep an eye out for pressure signs as you work up the loads.

No real trick to any style of bullet. I have a diagram that helps me set COL for a projectile that I have no hard data for. It's on another computer, I'll try and upload it later.

If you had FTF (failure to feed), then there would be other things to look at.

If the rounds went in and out of the barrel correctly (and you said you tested them in the barrel), then you have enough crimp. Leave that alone for now and minimize your variable. If you are using a progressive press, leave the dies where they are. If it's a single stage, lock the die rings. You want to keep the dies from changing, and changing the ammo.

Sounds like you are on your way.
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:56   #14
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I have never found any info on HPs or FN.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Here's the picture I mentioned. It's for a 45ACp, but works for 9mm as they both headspace on the case mouth.

HTH

don

Last edited by dudel; 06-27-2010 at 10:32..
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:18   #15
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As for crimping Im only using half of what they said to do.
Not even sure what this means?

For 9mm, an EASY way to set the crimp, requires several passes and a bullet puller.

Go ahead and "build" a round. Then pull the bullet out. You want to set the crimp so tight that it leaves a small indentation in the bullet. THEN, back off the crimp very slowly until there is NO indentation. The crimp is exactly correct then. You've removed ALL the belling, but not crimping so much that the brass is "grabbing" the bullet.
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:32   #16
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Not even sure what this means?

For 9mm, an EASY way to set the crimp, requires several passes and a bullet puller.

Go ahead and "build" a round. Then pull the bullet out. You want to set the crimp so tight that it leaves a small indentation in the bullet. THEN, back off the crimp very slowly until there is NO indentation. The crimp is exactly correct then. You've removed ALL the belling, but not crimping so much that the brass is "grabbing" the bullet.

Ron your method though will get the job done. However is slow and tedious and if you always use the exact same bullet and brass fine... but with mixed brass of slightly different wall thickness...won't work very well.

Measure the crimp with a caliper and be done with the bullet puller...
Bullet diameter plus two times the average case wall thickness is .355 + (2 X 0.012) = 0.379 inch is no crimp at all.... set your dies to the 0.376-0.378 range and be done with it already. Crimp is measured at the top mouth of the case. Easy and if you do it on the over size side with your first round can usually get it dialed in in two dummy rounds max.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:09   #17
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if you always use the exact same bullet and brass fine... but with mixed brass of slightly different wall thickness...won't work very well.
Regardless of HOW the crimp is set/measured... I'd think this would be a problem regardless? How does YOUR method of determining & setting the crimp avoid the issue of using mixed brass? My guess is... it DOESN'T, so it's a moot question and I would wonder why you would bother mentioning it.


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Measure the crimp with a caliper and be done with the bullet puller...
Bullet diameter plus two times the average case wall thickness is .355 + (2 X 0.012) = 0.379 inch is no crimp at all.... set your dies to the 0.376-0.378 range and be done with it already. Crimp is measured at the top mouth of the case. Easy and if you do it on the over size side with your first round can usually get it dialed in in two dummy rounds max.
I can see that measuring would get you there SLIGHTLY quicker... when I was setting mine up I had JUST seen somewhere where it mentioned the method of "setting too tight, then backing off". I guess I didn't know what the proper measurement was (at the time) and just used the empirical method.

The instructions have you run the die down until it touches shellplate and then going slightly further down. I think it only took me two tries to "back off" properly, so at most I adjusted one more time than you. I don't see pulling the bullet as a big job, and gave me the peace of mind it was where I wanted it.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:49   #18
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Hey Robin......Hook 'em Horns! UT/69 plus I liked the helicopter pics as I am a retired Navy helicopter pilot.

My data shows one load using 700x w/ 115 grn Rem. 4.7 grains and it is not a max load. I show no loads for Auto Comp with 115 grn. Auto Comp is new and I think it is mostly used with open category guns and "hot" loads.

I've always liked the Speer and Hornady manuals. It takes a little time to get loads dialed in. I am kinda old school and use what I know like Bullseye and Unique, but have tried Vihtavouri N series, 320, 330, 340. Bullseye and Unique have been around for decades and there is alot of data on them plus they are relatively cheap, faster burning powders.

Invest in a bullet puller, a case length gauge and calipers like the plastic RCBS. And get a notebook and record everything even primers and case brands! For range loads I typically stick with what seems to work......reliable and satisfactorily accurate. For pistols I shoot alot, 9mm and 45 ACP, that is what works for me. There I just try to replicate decent factory range ammo that go bang every time and no FTEs. For hunting loads, targets, rifles I find myself tinkering, looking for accuracy and maybe max power. Not everyone reloads for the same reasons but with the ammo I use alot I am into "cheap, easy and reliable."

Some ranges offer courses on handloading and if you are just getting started it would be a good investment. My local indoor range offers a series for $80 and you get to call the instructor later on if you have questions. You will easily save that much by not buying what you don't need, especially these days with the cost of primers, powder, etc.!

Lastly, Glocks, per the mfgr., are designed to work with factory spec or NATO spec loads. To me that means that "starting" loads may experience FTE, especially with the lighter bullets.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:05   #19
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Any round that was not in .03 of 1.169 I set aside.

I am in a hurry so this is just going to be brief.

Read your recipes again. 1.169 is MAX size but nearly no recipe calls for that length. If you want a middle of the ground length 1.130 works all the time in my guns with a FMJ/RN profile. I load Flat Points the same. I work them up on a chrono. You don't want to go shorter then the recipe recommends but longer is OK but will reduce pressure and not be a mid level load as a result. Read and learn about this some more if you don't understand what I am saying.

Crimp has been covered. Remove the bell. A little more or less is not going to ruin things in my experiance. Glock chambers are sloppy.
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Old 01-05-2010, 14:18   #20
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Agree, you really shouldn't be loading a 115gr FMJ at 1.169oal.

Case in point, my truncated cone boolits only chamber in my CZ at 1.04oal. I run 4.0 gr of 231 under that. My Lyman manual doesn't list a 115gr FMJ for some reason, but the JHP has 700x at 3.1gr as a minimum charge. It's no wonder they didn't function. Your recoil spring isn't set up to cycle a mild round like that.
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