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Old 02-07-2010, 09:28   #41
CanyonMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Good (accurate at the time) info about this load.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf

Regards,
Happyguy

My last "jump in for a spell got to go go go..

Yes. Your correct this is really a good read. I already went through this article a while back. Some one else on GT gave it out. I appreciate you sending it my way though. I think i will save it to my 'gun stuff' folder.


Thanks again man.


Good shooting




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Old 02-07-2010, 14:22   #42
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I just can't get too excited over .53 expansion (tops) in controlled gelatin when there are so many other rounds offered today that achieve .60 and above with the minimum 12" penetration.

It looks to me from reading the link that the 147-grain WWB JHP is a reliable penetrator but a sub-par expander.
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Old 02-07-2010, 14:48   #43
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I just can't get too excited over .53 expansion (tops) in controlled gelatin when there are so many other rounds offered today that achieve .60 and above with the minimum 12" penetration.

It looks to me from reading the link that the 147-grain WWB JHP is a reliable penetrator but a sub-par expander.
Actually the RA9T gets better expansion AND penetration than WWB JHP. Not quite sure how it does that but it does.

16 inches and .66 in clothed gel. According to the article I posted you can expect similar in actual use.

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Old 02-07-2010, 16:46   #44
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CanyonMan, I know that you're no dummy, so I'm glad you answered your own questions. The RA9T is worlds apart from the ol' OSM load.

It's all in the design baby, it's all in the design...

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Old 02-07-2010, 16:51   #45
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Actually the RA9T gets better expansion AND penetration than WWB JHP. Not quite sure how it does that but it does.

16 inches and .66 in clothed gel. According to the article I posted you can expect similar in actual use.

Regards,
Happyguy

Almost "Bowl time here" so real quick... According to my own shooting, (junk stuff so far NOT our side of beef/hind quarter/guts/clothing test yet) and my friend that works at WW as well, Nope. The T won't get the penetration at all the 147wwb does. It ain't going to happen. Even the 127gr P+P 'does not' get the penetration ther wwb147 gets. They are not even designed to get that type of penetration. They, the T's are designed to open faster, thus slowing down pen. The serrations cut on the bullet are "much different" on the T than on the wwb which 'barely' has any, thus this design (wwb) allows for tremendous penetration.


It's no secret I am not even a fan of wet pack/waterjug and news paper testing. But, even in these test, the wwb147 goes throuh 5 paper/water packed milk jugs and through another plain water jug, and keeps on truckin and is not recovered. None of the T's will do this 'that I have seen'.

Again, only using this as another example, because I just am not interested in gelatin and or water jug test. Yes these are fun, no flaming please we've all been through all that stuff already. I just prefer a closer 'real world senerio' as i have probably described on here a cajillion times..


any way, fwiw...


Like I said, i answerd my own question and was runnin on one cylinder when i even posted it...


Gotta go.



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Old 02-07-2010, 17:02   #46
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Well, according to forensic research by the San Diego PD ME the OSM load averages about 13 inches of penetration in real live people.

I have it on good authority that the RA9T does somewhat better.

I'll stick with RA9T and the 135 grain Federal Tactical Bonded load in 9mm. The latter penetrates about the same as RA9T.

Regards,
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Old 02-07-2010, 18:08   #47
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Well, according to forensic research by the San Diego PD ME the OSM load averages about 13 inches of penetration in real live people.

I have it on good authority that the RA9T does some what better.

I'll stick with RA9T and the 135 grain Federal Tactical Bonded load in 9mm. The latter penetrates about the same as RA9T.

Regards,
Happyguy



Hope your right.....


As for all the rest. Hey my friend, just so we all know. I ain't tryin to push this wwb147 on any one. Just like it and think its is a cool little round. Again, I carry a 45acp.


Hey got to get back to the super bowl...



Good shooting.



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Old 02-08-2010, 15:01   #48
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
CanyonMan, I know that you're no dummy, so I'm glad you answered your own questions. The RA9T is worlds apart from the ol' OSM load.

It's all in the design baby, it's all in the design...



Well, I don't know about that dummy part.... Ha.
I did answer my own question, and should NEVER have even ask it. Man I was totally one one cylinder when I did that, then ht the submit button. Then thought. That was dumb !

Your right amigo, you are so right....


Good shooting


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Old 02-10-2010, 00:41   #49
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Well you have 'assumed correctly on some of this."
Partially right? That's pretty good on caliber corner -- I will take it!!

I am, like you, looking for more penetration in a less expensive round that can be used for plinking and also work as camper round. Still haven't found any though, are they readily available or is it hit and miss?
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Old 02-10-2010, 05:31   #50
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Philly K9, my hats off to you and your fellow officers, Parts of Philly I've seen, a G-22 w/G-27 BUG, M-4, 12 Ga in the patrol vehicle, and a "Pitbull with Aids" as a working partner, and I would still feel naked out on those streets. Only place worse would be Mogadishu North (Detroit) and Cops there need..............well, everything including the MIANG for patrol.
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Old 02-11-2010, 00:15   #51
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Good (accurate at the time) info about this load.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf

How do we know they tested the wwb load? I dont see any reference to wwb or any product number in that article. Is white box the only load they made in 91?

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Old 02-11-2010, 01:05   #52
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Well after I posted and re-read my post a couple of times, and thought about it, and rememberd some things, I actually answered my own concerns. It is really quite simple.

The RA9T T series are very quick to expand, "not for me" I need penetration. If a JHP is going to expand at all, it will expand when the pressure inside the "cup" is highest, this means it will expand rather soon upon penetration. Physics will not have it any other way.
After a long talk with a good friend of mine at Winchester ammo plant last weeK about the 147gr WWB JHP, it is a simple thing to understand.

The RA9T T series are not going to penetrate like the WWB JHP because of the serations in the bullet from the pedal on down. The T series is designed to open fast, and the other design is a long standing bullet design for penetration. The ranger-T expands to a larger diameter, crushes more tissue, and creates more drag. Thus it will not penetrate as deeply. As My friend at WW and I talked about for almost an hour on the phone. Even the 127gr Ranger +P+ will not penetrate as far and deep as the WWB 147gr sub sonic. The 127gr load has a much lower SD than the 147gr, and again, expansion is proportionately larger. The latter, is designed to really penetrate. it was was originally desiged to be used in 1,000 yd sniper rifles for the army years ago. This is incorrect. There has never been a 9x19 sniper-rifle designed to be used at 1,000 yards.

As ART, my good friend at WW explained. This WWB 147gr JHP is a very well designed bullet for penetration and that is my agenda. Penetration. No arguments, modest expansion and a high SD will get you some penetration. Not rapid expansion You either get rapid expansion, or you don't get expansion. that as he said, really lacks in "Real world' senerios not jello and water jug test, but in real flesh and blood. I really had just went brain numb until, as I said, I re-read my own post, and answered my own question.


Thanks for the replies boys. Appreciate it...




CanyonMan

I'm not sure if this is a joke, or serious, but I answered in red in case it was a serious post.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:55   #53
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I'm not sure if this is a joke, or serious, but I answered in red in case it was a serious post.


Why would it be a JOKE man ?

I all ready know these things you've shared in RED If you read had all the post and other threads concerning this load, you would know that. Thanks any way....

The 1,000 yd part was a MAJOR typo, and for that I thank ya. I will go back and find all the post I put that in. I was dealing with something else at the time, and somehow put that in..

SORRY FOR THE ERROR IN YARDAGE BOYS ! (not yelling).



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Last edited by CanyonMan; 02-11-2010 at 09:25..
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:12   #54
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So every one can relax and go back to whatever your doing....



I made a huge stinking ERROR above with the 1,000 yd sniper thing. I truly had my head in my armpit, and my mind on something else, and got it all screwed up.. It was Designed for sniper work originally, as even my friend at WW told me it was. BUT, I confused this round with something else I was dealing with at the time, and got the yardage screwed around .. Sorry boys.



Not easy for me to say ... But, when I screw up, I screw up !


I went back this morning, (like i have nothing else going on here.. ha) and fixed all my post (i hope), I do not like giving out wrong info:



CanyonMan ( aka My very first mistake man)
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Old 02-11-2010, 14:04   #55
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What weapon/cartridge combo did they develop this bullet for?

Regards,
Happyguy
Happyguy, here's what I can tell you about the OSM load as I've pieced together over years of gathering info about this round. Here's some of the info I posted in the thread on the WWB 147JHP that CanyonMan mentioned previously (I'm cutting/pasting so I don't have to re-type everything):

"Or the fact that before the Navy settled on the 147 OSM load, Winchester designed a 140JHP load designated the Type-B (my exemplar is dated 85). This load was delivered to the Crane Naval Weapons Station in Indiana for testing. That weight didn't quite work out, so they upped the weight to 145 grains. This loading didn't expand so Winchester went up two more grains and redesigned the HP in order to obtain some amount of expansion and still have the cycling reliability, accuracy and sound suppression that was desired. This final load was of course designated the Olin Super Match Type-L (L=subsonic)."

And

"I'm not sure exactly when the Win 147JHP was officially adopted by the FBI, but my earliest sample round is dated '87. Also in my collection is one dated '88, one from an earily Win Super-X "Deep Penetration Subsonic" box and a fairly current ('08) USA brand load. All measurements are the same for all 4 loads; cavity depth, cavity diameter at the meplat and length of jacket cuts at the bullet tip. Esentially, they are all the same bullet. I even confirmed this with a friend who's a Winchester Rep in So.Cal. and he contacted his contact at Winchester who confirmed that the bullet used for their USA brand 147JHP load is the same bullet as the original OSM load."

Thus, in reality, the original Winchester 147JHP was a purpose-built bullet and designed for one mission in mind; to afford the SpecOps guys who were using suppressed SMGs (MP5s) long distance accuracy (distances that would be unacceptable to attempt with a suppressed pistol even on a good day) with a bullet that would also have a minimal amount of expansion.

And as I've stated before, the OSM load was really never intended to be a law enforcement or civilian SD bullet.
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Old 02-11-2010, 16:12   #56
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yeah, What he said....



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