auto shotgun???

cosmose · 11-10-2009, 16:54

i've been thinking about getting a short barrel semi-auto shotgun. and was wondering if anybody has one they use for home-defence. if so what kind? and how do you like it?
pics would be sweet

**janice6** · 11-10-2009, 16:59

Say "SEMI-AUTO" before the ***t hits the fan.

space_weazel · 11-11-2009, 00:02

I have an 11-87 that I got as a police consignment, I love it, it shoots every thing.

aippi · 11-11-2009, 00:49

I also have an 11-87P but it lives in my gun safe and only comes out to play. I love it and it is my favorite shotgun to shoot, but it is a play toy as I have 870's to trust my life to and would never trust it to any semi-auto shotgun even the 11-87P I built that runs like a Swiss Watch. I am a Remington Factory Certified Law Enforcement armorer and certified on the 870P and the 11-87P so I know both these weapons very well and make a living do this.Iif that gives some weight to the above statment then fine cause a bunch of guys on this site are not going to agree with it. Which makes me wonder how much they know about these weapons...... You consider all the opinions and advice then decide for yourself.

Hedo1 · 11-11-2009, 05:10

I have an 1100 that I have set up for 3 gun comps. On average it shoots about 300 rounds per year of buck. I use birdshot to train with it. It shoots about 400-500 rounds of that a year in training or classes. I also use it with a longer barrel for trap and skeet, it shoots about 1000 rounds per year doing that. It's 12 years old. I replace the springs every 2 years or so. The seals get replaced every winter whether they need it or not. Gets cleaned after every use and detail stripped before a match.

To be honest I have not had a problem with that gun that I can recall. It may have failed to cycle once or twice in 12 years due to low powered skeet loads but that's about it. ymmv but I like that gun for home defense. I've seen a lot of guys who short stroke a pump gun under pressure. Doesn't happen with an autoloader.

One guys opinion. I'd take an 870 or an 1100/11-87 and wouldn't be troubled by either. Personal preference I guess.

aippi · 11-11-2009, 16:46

Hedo... shoot your 1100 from the hip and count the times it will not cycle....the first tactical weapons my HRT had were custom jobs built on the 1100. They have to be shouldered to cylce correctly. We had a drill where team members needed to move across an allyway or from cover to cover, so another team member using a corner of a building for cover would stick a shotgun out from his body around the corner without exposing himself and give covering fire for the movement. The 1100's would not cycle when fired like this. We also had a drill where the team member is down on his back and would fire the shotgun from across his chest upward into a target. there were other numerous drill these weapon could not perform. We got rid of them and went back to the 870. There have been many times when I had to get off quick shots and did not have time to shoulder my weapon and I don't want that issue when my butt is on the line. Not an issue with a pump. A fighting shotgun has to work in many situations a recreational gun does not. Just last week that lady cop at at Ft Hood was down when she was firing at that shooter and she was firing from the ground. she had a hand gun at was able to hit him ( but not kill the SOB) and if she had been armed with a shotgun she would still have had to make those shots. Recreatational shooting, hunting and practicing on a Range under Range rules gives trigger time but does little to prepare you for using one of these weapons in a fight. Again, I will not trust my life to any semi-auto shotgun.

BLACKMAGICK · 11-15-2009, 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by aippi

I also have an 11-87P but it lives in my gun safe and only comes out to play. I love it and it is my favorite shotgun to shoot, but it is a play toy as I have 870's to trust my life to and would never trust it to any semi-auto shotgun even the 11-87P I built that runs like a Swiss Watch. I am a Remington Factory Certified Law Enforcement armorer and certified on the 870P and the 11-87P so I know both these weapons very well and make a living do this.Iif that gives some weight to the above statment then fine cause a bunch of guys on this site are not going to agree with it. Which makes me wonder how much they know about these weapons...... You consider all the opinions and advice then decide for yourself.

aippi, I believe what you're saying but could you explain why that is?

In my mind I can't see how the gun "knows" how you're shooting it, so to speak. I'm thinking pull the trigger with a string while it's sitting on some kind of rest and it should fire every time.
Is it something to do with needing recoil feedback of some sort? What is it about semi-auto sg's that would make it cycle differently depending on how it's held?

motorcyclist · 11-15-2009, 07:37

[quote=aippi;14152989]Hedo... shoot your 1100 from the hip and count the times it will not cycle....the first tactical weapons my HRT had were custom jobs built on the 1100. They have to be shouldered to cylce correctly.

I've got to try this the next I shoot my 1100. My Son one time was messing around at a skeet field trying to hit clays from the hip with my 1100 and it cycled every time, but he fired only 3, maybe 4 rounds before I told him to knock it off (club rules don't alow shoot from the hip). I could see inertia drive (Benelli-A5) having problems as you'd lose energy driving the whole gun backwards. I would think gas operated would have no problems.

mixflip · 11-15-2009, 11:11

I am going to take a chance with the Mossberg 930 SPX tactical. $550 - $600 is just too hard to pass up for me.

nursetim · 11-15-2009, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by aippi

Hedo... shoot your 1100 from the hip and count the times it will not cycle....the first tactical weapons my HRT had were custom jobs built on the 1100. They have to be shouldered to cylce correctly. We had a drill where team members needed to move across an allyway or from cover to cover, so another team member using a corner of a building for cover would stick a shotgun out from his body around the corner without exposing himself and give covering fire for the movement. The 1100's would not cycle when fired like this. We also had a drill where the team member is down on his back and would fire the shotgun from across his chest upward into a target. there were other numerous drill these weapon could not perform. We got rid of them and went back to the 870. There have been many times when I had to get off quick shots and did not have time to shoulder my weapon and I don't want that issue when my butt is on the line. Not an issue with a pump. A fighting shotgun has to work in many situations a recreational gun does not. Just last week that lady cop at at Ft Hood was down when she was firing at that shooter and she was firing from the ground. she had a hand gun at was able to hit him ( but not kill the SOB) and if she had been armed with a shotgun she would still have had to make those shots. Recreatational shooting, hunting and practicing on a Range under Range rules gives trigger time but does little to prepare you for using one of these weapons in a fight. Again, I will not trust my life to any semi-auto shotgun.

Is it a problem like limp wristing? Also, do all semi-auto suffer the same flaw?

Z71bill · 11-15-2009, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by nursetim

Is it a problem like limp wristing? Also, do all semi-auto suffer the same flaw?

I did not know a gas operated semi-auto would have this issue -

I will test mine next time I am at the range to see if I can make it jam.

itstime · 11-15-2009, 18:13

Just got a Mossberg 935SPX for under 300. I fell into that one. Have to shoot it now.

Narc1911 · 11-18-2009, 23:03

Remmington 11-87 or 1100, Benelli M2 or M4, or Mossberg 930 are all good guns I would trust for HD.

silversport · 12-05-2009, 08:58

I'd bet it has to do with recoil...unless you shoot from the hip with a rock hard hold...if there is any give when you touch one off (and there will be) you may have a short cycle or not cycle fully...the pump uses YOU as the cycler, not gas or inertia (as in the Benelli M1Super90)...just a thought...
Bill

Truckee · 12-05-2009, 12:39

aippi is right, although he doesn't need my affirmation.

We've shot auto-loaders (specifically the 11-87P) from unorthodox positions. There have been failures to extract, to eject and to feed.

silversport, you're on the track. There is a scientific explanation. But, basically, if the gun and bolt are moving in the same direction and velocity (relatively), the bolt cannot cycle.

Such complaint from combat shooters likely prodded Benelli to create its M3 (one of the motives)... the ease of auto-loaders coupled with the reliability of the pump. Under combat stress, a confusion inspiring system IMO but, this is for another discussion.

I too stick with the pump guns.

aippi · 12-05-2009, 12:55

More food for thought. When you use a gas operated semi-auto you not only have to stake your life on the weapon but completely 100% on the ammo. If the round you fire as been left short a few grains of powder it may not produce the gases required to cyle the weapon. On takes a little bit off and your are dealing with a misfeed. In a pump, that same round goes "KaBoom" and you cycle the next round so the fact that round was not perfect makes little difference.

So carry a gas operated shotgun and Mr. Murphy gets to F;;; with your ammo and your wepaon. Mr. Murphy loves the semi-autos and I suspect he hates the 870

DocwithGlock · 12-05-2009, 14:32

While I agree that pump guns are more reliable, my Mossy 930SPX runs like a sewing machine! I have not had a malfunction since I got it a few months ago and I have put over 500 rounds throught it (have not shot it from the hip). Personally, I would not fire from the hip unless I was being charged from close range (and was completely unable to get the gun into propper position) and even then I would problably just hit the BG with it if the the gun malfunctioned.

I wouldn't recommend using any firearm unless your train with it and know all the ins and outs.

Aside from reliability of pumps, the racking sound is a huge deterent in my mind. Then again there is something to be said for seven decently aimed shots in under a couple of seconds (I can get off seven rounds with a pump at close range in under three seconds, but I am faster and more accurate with the semi). Also, if you can only use one hand, the semi gets the edge (not easy, but doable).

byf43 · 12-05-2009, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by aippi

Hedo... shoot your 1100 from the hip and count the times it will not cycle....the first tactical weapons my HRT had were custom jobs built on the 1100. They have to be shouldered to cylce correctly. We had a drill where team members needed to move across an allyway or from cover to cover, so another team member using a corner of a building for cover would stick a shotgun out from his body around the corner without exposing himself and give covering fire for the movement. The 1100's would not cycle when fired like this. We also had a drill where the team member is down on his back and would fire the shotgun from across his chest upward into a target. there were other numerous drill these weapon could not perform. We got rid of them and went back to the 870. There have been many times when I had to get off quick shots and did not have time to shoulder my weapon and I don't want that issue when my butt is on the line. Not an issue with a pump. A fighting shotgun has to work in many situations a recreational gun does not. Just last week that lady cop at at Ft Hood was down when she was firing at that shooter and she was firing from the ground. she had a hand gun at was able to hit him ( but not kill the SOB) and if she had been armed with a shotgun she would still have had to make those shots. Recreatational shooting, hunting and practicing on a Range under Range rules gives trigger time but does little to prepare you for using one of these weapons in a fight. Again, I will not trust my life to any semi-auto shotgun.

While I have shot my favorite 1100 from the hip a few times (and never had a 'hiccup'), I will have to shoot both 1100s a bunch of times to see what happens.

ETA: With that said, my primary 'defensive role' scattergun is one (of several) 870s!

silversport · 12-05-2009, 15:25

Don't ever count on the "Racking Sound" to do anything but give away your position...I have heard this my whole life and while I was present once when it actually worked, I chastised the officer (a friend) later for going in to get the invader with an empty weapon...YMMV but I know what I would do...
Bill

varmint6 · 12-05-2009, 15:52

ive got a benelli m1 and love it ..
i ve got ghost rings and a sure fire dont know about in the house but itll work great outside.

Truckee · 12-05-2009, 16:18

If stealth is an issue, racking the slide can be done with about the same noise as charging a bolt on an auto-loader. Agreed, the noise of racking the slide is a target indicator but, it's only an issue the first time... the big boom that follows is a much worse give away.

I haven't seen a malfunction shooting from the hip, although I'm confident it occurs. I have seen failures with over-head, arms out forward or aft, corner shooting, supine, prone and inverted.

6520M4P229 · 12-05-2009, 16:19

I got two words for you: Benelli M4
Buy one & shoot it, you'll understand.

freeride88 · 12-05-2009, 16:28

I use a Rem 1100 with either a 21in or 28in barrel, depending on what I'm doing with it, and I've never had a failure of any kind. Guess I'm just lucky that way, but it's been 100% reliable for me.

shootingbuff · 01-02-2010, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by aippi

More food for thought. When you use a gas operated semi-auto you not only have to stake your life on the weapon but completely 100% on the ammo. If the round you fire as been left short a few grains of powder it may not produce the gases required to cyle the weapon. On takes a little bit off and your are dealing with a misfeed. In a pump, that same round goes "KaBoom" and you cycle the next round so the fact that round was not perfect makes little difference.

So carry a gas operated shotgun and Mr. Murphy gets to F;;; with your ammo and your wepaon. Mr. Murphy loves the semi-autos and I suspect he hates the 870

I have fixed read clean 1100 series SGs many a time for my friends and some of our shooters. Other than that and light loads (usually same time) I have not seen the the 1100 series (limp wristed) I have seen a few 870s come through with sticky extraction and at times any pump being short stroked.

Semi-autos if they run are easier to fire from unorthodox positions.

True, oh so true any firearm you are going to use for defense needs to be fired from every position and every way one can think of to see its and your limits.

When talking SGs you also need to add the pattern of the ammo you are going to use and PoI/PoC.

Murphy is why you practice transitions and Clearance drills.

Also limp wristed SGs can benifit some what from a "grip" on the SG.

sb

shootingbuff · 01-02-2010, 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeride88

I use a Rem 1100 with either a 21in or 28in barrel, depending on what I'm doing with it, and I've never had a failure of any kind. Guess I'm just lucky that way, but it's been 100% reliable for me.

Keep the gas system, mag tube (in and out), clean, a fresh gas seal, and general cleaning on the rest. Check springs/replace depending on your usage. A modified gun may need a different/modified gas piston.

1100 series run - just need to maintain them more than a M1/2/3/4 or Glock.

sb