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Old 02-09-2010, 14:15   #1
AcenJay
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What would you do?

At what point in this video is the use of deadly force justifiable? What if you were the driver in the car, and also what if you saw this happening from about where the camera is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0PQ4p8lGfA
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Old 02-09-2010, 14:44   #2
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Deadly force is a last resort.

I wouldn't have shot that guy if I were the driver, but that's just me.

If I'd been standing near the camera and he'd headed my way he'd be a gunpoint. If he kept closing (inside 20-30 ft, he'd get shot).

Do what you feel is right and can be justified by an attorney in court.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:53   #3
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I'm with swotivated. No need for deadly force. Shoot when you must, not when you can.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:01   #4
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When he was standing behind the car I would have had much more fun time running over his @$$.

Keep in mind though guys, he was assaulting that vehicle with a "deadly weapon", and shouting obsenities. Someone could have been hurt from the broken glass.

This video had a great "adrenaline rush" factor for me, I think I'll use it to work on desensitizing myself to this kind of behavior, especially the screaming. When I hear a woman scream I almost freeze in fear, exactly opposite of what I need to be doing, which is keeping a clear head and acting if necessary. It's physiological.

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Old 02-10-2010, 11:06   #5
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That's what happens when a person doesn't have anything to loose and the country doesn't have the resolve to do anything about it.

The driver did the correct thing - got out of there. Yes he did incur car repair cost but probably less expensive than attorney fees if he shot or attacked the vandal.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:15   #6
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That's what happens when a person doesn't have anything to loose and the country doesn't have the resolve to do anything about it.

The driver did the correct thing - got out of there. Yes he did incur car repair cost but probably less expensive than attorney fees if he shot or attacked the vandal.
But that doesn't do anything to bring the vandal to justice... you are basically saying the vandal has free reign on society. The "polite" thing to do would have been to call the police and driving around in circles to keep the guy busy until they could get there, praying the dude doesn't hurt someone in the process?
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:22   #7
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When he was standing behind the car I would have had much more fun time running over his @$$.

Keep in mind though guys, he was assaulting that vehicle with a "deadly weapon", and shouting obsenities. Someone could have been hurt from the broken glass.
You're looking at this all wrong man. IMO, people like you shouldn't be carrying.

It's not your duty as Joe CCW to "deal with" guys like this. Get out of there!
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:29   #8
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But that doesn't do anything to bring the vandal to justice... you are basically saying the vandal has free reign on society. The "polite" thing to do would have been to call the police and driving around in circles to keep the guy busy until they could get there, praying the dude doesn't hurt someone in the process?
That's true - vandals do have free reign in society and the attacker was proving it. The attacker was not afraid of the police or (lack of) jail time. Take away the fear of the law and you have the Rodney King LA Riots.

This video is a great lesson for us all on how thin the veneer of civilization is in the USA.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:30   #9
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You're looking at this all wrong man. IMO, people like you shouldn't be carrying.

It's not your duty as Joe CCW to "deal with" guys like this. Get out of there!
LOL... maybe that's why the wife has a permit and I don't. I really don't understand your point of view though... to me it's thinking like this that it's no small wonder people have to live in fear in places like "the bronx". People need to stand up for themselves. That doesn't always mean applying deadly force... I never said anything about shooting the guy, but the dude seriously needs to be taught a lesson somehow.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:49   #10
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LOL... maybe that's why the wife has a permit and I don't. I really don't understand your point of view though... to me it's thinking like this that it's no small wonder people have to live in fear in places like "the bronx". People need to stand up for themselves. That doesn't always mean applying deadly force... I never said anything about shooting the guy, but the dude seriously needs to be taught a lesson somehow.
I'm from 'da Bronx'. What you learn is situational awareness- learn go and no go areas - and choosing your battles - when to fight or run. Those who choose to fight too many times usually got seriously hurt. The attacker in the video will not learn - nor will the thousands like him.
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Old 02-10-2010, 13:10   #11
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Lethal force is justified when you can articulate that he has the means, opportunity and intent to do you serious injury. In AZ, I have no duty to retreat.

IMO, I can make that case at 0:51. That's the point where he stops beating on the passenger side and moves towards the driver's window.

"Get out of there" is a fine solution. Unfortunately, it wasn't available in this scenario due to traffic. When the driver goes as far as possible and crackhead comes after him again, never mind that this happens more than once, I think that the "reasonable fear" case is well made.

"Shoot when you have to, not when you can" is also good advice. Bear in mind, though, that there is no single right answer for how much risk a person should tolerate. My training and experience makes my view of acceptable risk different than your's. My physical condition makes my view different; passengers present, knowledge of who this clown is, .... lots of things come int the decision. As long as means, opportunity and intent are in there, it's good.
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Old 02-10-2010, 13:17   #12
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He hit my car so hard I was startled and pressed on the gas instead of the decelerator.

He has a 3lb hammer, and I have a 2300lb car....advantage me.

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Old 02-10-2010, 13:22   #13
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"Shoot when you have to, not when you can" is also good advice. Bear in mind, though, that there is no single right answer for how much risk a person should tolerate. My training and experience makes my view of acceptable risk different than your's.
Very true and very important. My risk tolerance is apparently quite a bit higher than many here, probably due to a personal history of experience in situations and a high level of training, coupled with a strong concern for and awareness of the cost/benefit part of a risk analysis. Someone with different levels of experience, understanding, skill, etc. would and should have a different view of what risk is acceptable and what is not. Good point, Sam.
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Old 02-10-2010, 13:24   #14
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But that doesn't do anything to bring the vandal to justice... you are basically saying the vandal has free reign on society.
I don't think that is correct. Just because you don't want to get into a fight with a crazy guy doesn't mean you think he should have free reign on society. There are plenty of other options, such as calling the police after you have gotten away, that would help bring the guy to justice.
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:13   #15
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Oh, man, it's just another poor misunderstood Haitian illegal. Let's bring a bunch more of their babies over so they can grow up and be just like their daddys. After all, isn't it our civic duty?

Actually, I wouldn't have shot the POS. Not unless he started trying to beat his way inside my vehicle and endangered me or mine personally.
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Old 02-10-2010, 15:45   #16
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Lethal force is justified when you can articulate that he has the means, opportunity and intent to do you serious injury. In AZ, I have no duty to retreat.

IMO, I can make that case at 0:51. That's the point where he stops beating on the passenger side and moves towards the driver's window.

"Get out of there" is a fine solution. Unfortunately, it wasn't available in this scenario due to traffic. When the driver goes as far as possible and crackhead comes after him again, never mind that this happens more than once, I think that the "reasonable fear" case is well made.

"Shoot when you have to, not when you can" is also good advice. Bear in mind, though, that there is no single right answer for how much risk a person should tolerate. My training and experience makes my view of acceptable risk different than your's. My physical condition makes my view different; passengers present, knowledge of who this clown is, .... lots of things come int the decision. As long as means, opportunity and intent are in there, it's good.
It looks like he actually took a swing at the driver side windows at 0:54 too. Right there, the driver could have fired if he/she had a gun if he/she was unable to drive away from being boxed in. Of course driving away didn't look to be an immediate option, so after the assailant had demonstrated those means, opportunity, and intent by attacking the driver side window, wouldn't it be justified to use the car as a weapon and run his ass over or pin him up hard against a vehicle in front or behind?
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Old 02-10-2010, 15:59   #17
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"Get out of there" is a fine solution. Unfortunately, it wasn't available in this scenario due to traffic. When the driver goes as far as possible and crackhead comes after him again, never mind that this happens more than once, I think that the "reasonable fear" case is well made.
Having lived in AZ, I think deadly force (either shooting him or running him over) would certainly be justified there. It's not that way in every state.

Even though the driver was unable to peel out and leave the area he still managed to keep moving, making it very hard for the guy to hurt him (can't say the same for the car unfortunately).

On an unrelated note, I can add this to my many reasons for upgrading from 9mm. I don't have full confidence that I would be able to shoot through my car windows with 9mm JHPs in a situation like this. Does anyone have experience with this? What's penetration and accuracy like?

Last edited by swotivated; 02-11-2010 at 14:52..
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Old 02-10-2010, 18:51   #18
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I would travel back in time and eradicate from the face of this planet any DNA remotely associated with that sorry excuse for a human being.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:38   #19
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Having lived in AZ, I think deadly force (either shooting him or running him over) would certainly be justified here. It's not that way in every state.

Even though the driver was unable to peel out and leave the area he still managed to keep moving, making it very hard for the guy to hurt him (can't say the same for the car unfortunately).

On an unrelated note, I can add this to my many reasons for upgrading from 9mm. I don't have full confidence that I would be able to shoot through my car windows with 9mm JHPs in a situation like this. Does anyone have experience with this? What's penetration and accuracy like?
How can you criticize me and say I shouldn't be carrying and then turn around and say deadly force could be justified in the same thread???
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:49   #20
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i read somewhere that crackhead got shot and was killed by LVMPD in another incident afterwards.

For me, it all depends on a couple of things. If I were driving alone and the guy started hitting my car I would look for avenues of exit (preferrably with my car), if a safe exit is not available I'd stay inside the car. Now if he breaches my safety zone (cabin) either by breaking the windshield/windows or opening the door that's where I think I'm justified in trying to incapacitate him with my weapon.

Now if I were with my family that would be a totally different matter.
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