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Old 01-01-2010, 17:57   #41
David Armstrong
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Yea the outcome would have been differnt david. Some dead bad guys?
That is a wonderful guess on your part with nothing to support it, of course. The facts are simple: there were multiple attackers and they had shot him before he could do anything.
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Advantages of chamber empty carry?
Short of being fumble fingered there ain't any.
Once again we see how a preconceived conclusion prohiits the ability to look at the facts. Thousands of folks have found advantages for them and their organizations, and they have done so for decades.
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And the disadvantages of carrying a loaded gun? Oh, yea, you might violate the four basic rules of safety and shoot yourself, right?
That can be one, and perhaps an important one given the number of AD/NDs we see each year.
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Old 01-01-2010, 18:09   #42
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
That is a wonderful guess on your part with nothing to support it, of course. The facts are simple: there were multiple attackers and they had shot him before he could do anything.
What? You mean he didn't rack the slide several times david? Didn't do anything? I sure saw him try several times TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING! But then, trying to chamber a round while being suddenly attacked and shot isn't like the square range.

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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
That can be one, and perhaps an important one given the number of AD/NDs we see each year.
And that's one of the bad parts about chamber empty. It gives you the thought your gun isn't loaded. And how many people are killed and injured each year by 'unloaded guns'. How many people pull triggers of guns they thought were unloaded.

And that is why chamber loaded is a better way. Cause you KNOW it's loaded. And you know to keep, as SayUncle says, 'keep your boggerhook off the bang switch'.

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Old 01-01-2010, 18:52   #43
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What? You mean he didn't rack the slide several times david? Didn't do anything?
Once again, deaf, we see your bad habit of making things up instead of dealing with what was actually said. Here, let's compare:

David says: "The facts are simple: there were multiple attackers and they had shot him before he could do anything."

deaf says: "What? You mean he didn't rack the slide several times david? Didn't do anything? I sure saw him try several times TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING!"

Quite a diffence there. Perhaps you honestly can't figure out that difference, but I doubt it. Again, it makes a lot of difference if one is pushing an agenda instead of looking at the facts objectively.

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And how many people are killed and injured each year by 'unloaded guns'.
None. At least none that are shot. That is sort of the point.
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How many people pull triggers of guns they thought were unloaded.
Don't know, but apparenlty a fair number of them are mistaken when they do so.
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And that is why chamber loaded is a better way. Cause you KNOW it's loaded. And you know to keep, as SayUncle says, 'keep your boggerhook off the bang switch'.
Yep, we've seen how well that works, right? Given that there are almost no AD/NDs every year, right? You know this is a losing argument, right? I mean, you are going to try to argue that people aren't smart enough to know if their gun is loaded or not, so loading it makes everyone safer because they are all going to obey safety rules?
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Old 01-01-2010, 19:10   #44
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Originally Posted by Magnum 357 View Post
This is a REAL EXAMPLE why people should carry a REVOLVER for SELF DEFENSE...you don't have to worry about recking the slide or having a JAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no? almost every revolver i had would start to lock up after it got hot. my glock didnt. i think he died because he #1 had no round in the chamber and #2 he had a poor quality gun.
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Old 01-01-2010, 20:49   #45
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Many people carry a revolver because its a simple design and is relatively easy to operate. So by the same token should the BG acquire your weapon he'll have just as easy of a time using it on you as you would him.
That video was a crappy situation. The guy was shot before he drew his weapon. Panic, then add bullet wound. panic+bullet wound=panic 10X. Had he had one in the pipe he may have got a shot off. Only way to prevent that situation... Guards armed with dillon mini-guns 3500 rounds a minute is enough to deter just about everyone.
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Old 01-01-2010, 22:29   #46
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Originally Posted by Goldendog Redux View Post
Absolutely.

In the last thread everyone seemed to thing they would have simply rocked some El Presidente getting instantly lethal CNS on the bad guys and walking away unscathed.
I allllllways love the gross misrepresentation of other's points. Well, not really.

Observing that carrying a gun for self-defense and then not carrying the same gun in the most ready condition for self-defense is hardly going all El Presidente.
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Old 01-01-2010, 22:30   #47
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Yes. The problem, IMO, is that some folks look at these various situations with the goal of trying to support their preconceived biases and/or personal agendas rather than looking at them with open minds and from multiple perspectives.
Clearly your mind is so open. Ain't that something. Trying taking some of your own advise on that one.

Regarding not looking at situations for the truth, I harken to your earlier admission... No matter how clear the evidence, distract the jury....

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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
...I do the expert witness stuff. Not sure what that has to do with the fact that the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.
One shot is always fatal...

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Old 01-02-2010, 09:47   #48
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Originally Posted by sparky241 View Post
no? almost every revolver i had would start to lock up after it got hot. my glock didnt. i think he died because he #1 had no round in the chamber and #2 he had a poor quality gun.
If your revolver is locking up when it gets hot, the revolver is defective in some way. A well-made quality revolver should not do that.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:52   #49
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Clearly your mind is so open. Ain't that something. Trying taking some of your own advise on that one.
I'm not the one constantly trying to suggest that there is only one way to do something no matter what the situation or need. I'm the one who suggests taking a look at the entire picture rather than focus on only one small part of the problem. I'm always open to whatever works best for that iindividual is what that individual should do, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all-and-the-size-is-the-one-that-fits-me philosophy regularly presented by a few folks here. My mind is quite open.
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One shot is always fatal
Hmmm. Looks like you are the only one who has said that. I certainly didn't.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 01-02-2010 at 09:55..
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Old 01-02-2010, 18:39   #50
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Yep, we've seen how well that works, right? Given that there are almost no AD/NDs every year, right? You know this is a losing argument, right? I mean, you are going to try to argue that people aren't smart enough to know if their gun is loaded or not, so loading it makes everyone safer because they are all going to obey safety rules?
So david, using your crystal ball you know all these AD/NDs had nothing to do with those who kept or carried chamber empty and forgot the chamber had been loaded? Or that some had to do with kids getting a hold of them? Or some dropping non drop safe pistols, as happened to Steve Malloy who packed a Colt '03 .32, fully loaded, and bent over and the weapon fell to the floor, firing a fatal shot into him (and this is one of the exceptions I pointed out about non drop safe pistols to be carried chamber empty.)

What is more, considering the MILLIONS of people, LEOs and civilians, that carry chamber loaded guns each day, the AD/ND rate is extremely low, regardless of how they had the AD/ND.

Which brings us back to the original concept of fully loaded weapons.

Yes david, it is a 'choice'. A ‘personal choice'. But a choice is not, in itself, the best way. Chamber empty has shown so many faults that unless you are in a narrow category, as I've posted, then it's a poor choice that can be changed to a better one by either getting a better weapon or training.

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Old 01-02-2010, 19:22   #51
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So david, using your crystal ball you know all these AD/NDs had nothing to do with those who kept or carried chamber empty and forgot the chamber had been loaded?
Once again you try to make something up that was not said and then try to make an issue of it. It's pretty simple, deaf. If the gun is not loaded, it can't AD/ND.
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Chamber empty has shown so many faults that unless you are in a narrow category, as I've posted, then it's a poor choice that can be changed to a better one by either getting a better weapon or training.
Chamber empty carry has some faults, just as chamber loaded carry has some faults, just as they both have their advantages. Which one is a poor choice depends on a variety of factors that can differ for each person and their situation. And given the large number of very well trained individuals who have had AD/NDs, it seems pretty obvious that "better training" doesn't do much. As for "better weapons", perhaps you would care to hazard a guess at the handgun that has accumulated the greatest number of verified AD/NDs in the last couple of decades?
But again, you seem to contradict yourself. You want to claim that people cannot figure out chamber empty versus chamber loaded, but they can remember all the safety rules, follow them all the time, etc.

All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that the guy from Agra was the victim of a surprise attack by multiple assailants where the condition of the chamber or the selection of the weapon had no bearing on the final outcome.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 01-02-2010 at 19:26..
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Old 01-02-2010, 20:25   #52
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
I'm the one who suggests taking a look at the entire picture rather than focus on only one small part of the problem.
Ain't that precious. Needin' the gun to go bang RIGHT FRICKIN NOW is, in David's world, one small part of the problem. Wow, just, wow.

Actually your so committed to Empty Chamber it makes one suspect you expert witness testified at a suit against a department when an officer was shot while doing so by department policy... or maybe it was yours.

Anyways.

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I'm always open to whatever works best for that iindividual is what that individual should do, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all-and-the-size-is-the-one-that-fits-me philosophy regularly presented by a few folks here. My mind is quite open.
Except when you disagree with it. Hey, at least I'm honest about my closed-mindedness.

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the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.
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Originally Posted by PhoneCop View Post
....
One shot is always fatal...
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post

Hmmm. Looks like you are the only one who has said that. I certainly didn't.
Good, since one shot is not always fatal and the guy didn't die immediately and he was trying to fight but couldn't because his chamber was empty then a reasonable person's mind is open to the very real possibility the guy died because he was carrying with an empty chamber.

Not cooking up academic argument and ignoring evidence to the contrary.

I'm done here.

That guy is the result of advocating empty chamber instead of advoacting more training and practice. Don't cater to inability, strongly advocate improvement.

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Old 01-02-2010, 21:02   #53
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Once again you try to make something up that was not said and then try to make an issue of it. It's pretty simple, deaf. If the gun is not loaded, it can't AD/ND.
Oh yea it can david. Happens all the time when people first rack the slide (and no round ejects) and THEN they take the magazine out.

Can that be cured by training? Yep. Just like keeping ones boogerhook off the bang switch. And that's what one does when carrying with the chamber loaded.


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All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that the guy from Agra was the victim of a surprise attack by multiple assailants where the condition of the chamber or the selection of the weapon had no bearing on the final outcome.
If you include some dead BGs, yea it would have changed the final outcome. And if his wounds had not been fatal, then yes, to keep fighting and stopping the attackers would have changed the final outcome.

The biggist lesson to learn from Agra is that when faced with a sudden attack, having the weapon chamber loaded keeps you from having to TRY to chamber load your weapon while under attack.

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Old 01-03-2010, 05:41   #54
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This is a silly argument, you always carry a gun loaded, ready to fire, anybody who does not, is a half wit.

Sitting here, thick dressing gown on, Glock 19 with 16 rounds up in pocket, go back to bed, on bedside table, showered and dressed, in holster.

Run thumb down side of holster, I can feel the wee lump on the extractor, glance at my pistol, as I holster, live round can be seen, and felt, via the extractor.

This poor assassinated person was not trained, had a crap gun, chamber empty, lived in a country that caused him to be armed with a .32!

His place of business, no man trap door, a crowd could be in the showroom instantly.

Ghandi, a man of peace, stated the "Worse thing the British did, was to take the guns away from the Indian people" I will sip my Coffee to that. A bacon butte might go good with it also.

Every body I know who carry all the time, can clear a Pistol, and fire the first aimed shot in a second and a half. Not with chamber empty, not whilst dragging my Wife to a place of cover, not at the same time as I am pushing a baby crowd, 2-3-4 out of the way, and still drawing and firing.

Anybody, in the US of A, where we live, not carrying a finger press away from a bang (16 of them?, at least) is stupid. They are my honest my feelings.

Back to bed for an hour, it is cold out there, in the 40s, in Florida? BRRRR.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:13   #55
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Ain't that precious. Needin' the gun to go bang RIGHT FRICKIN NOW is, in David's world, one small part of the problem. Wow, just, wow.
Yes, that is correct. It is ONE small part of the overall problem, not just in David's world, but in the world of many organizations and many people. That is what so many of the agenda driven folks fail to realize, the "quick draw gotta shoot a bad guy in a fraction of a second right now" event is only one small part of the overall issue of using a firearm.
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Actually your so committed to Empty Chamber ...
There is more of that agenda problem. I'm not committed to empty chamber. I'm copmmitted to a reasonable and rational assessment of what bets fits the individual needs and situation.
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Hey, at least I'm honest about my closed-mindedness.
That pretty much says and explains it all. When one is agenda driven one can rarely see anything that does not further that agenda.
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Good, since one shot is not always fatal and the guy didn't die immediately and he was trying to fight but couldn't because his chamber was empty then a reasonable person's mind is open to the very real possibility the guy died because he was carrying with an empty chamber.
If one is agenda driven, yes. A more honest view is that an unaware person was attacked by multiple assailants who shot him before he could react with anything.
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I'm done here.
Bye bye!
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That guy is the result of advocating empty chamber instead of advoacting more training and practice. Don't cater to inability, strongly advocate improvement.
Nobody disagrees with that, but the reality of life is that most folks have very limited training and practice resources. I tend to try to focus on the reality of the issue.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:24   #56
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Oh yea it can david. Happens all the time when people first rack the slide (and no round ejects) and THEN they take the magazine out.
Sigh. We see here a perfect example of the agenda. Only someone trying to support a belief could say that a gun is chamber empty when someone has racked the slide and put a round into the chamber. But wait a minute. Aren't these people the same ones you are saying can follow the safety rules and such? Hmmm, seems a bit of a disconnect again.
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Can that be cured by training? Yep.
And yet we regularly see the AD/ND problem in organizations and individuals with extensive training. And that "solution" ignores the fact that so many folks have lilmited training resources. The fact that most folks cannot do brain surgery can be cured by training.
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If you include some dead BGs, yea it would have changed the final outcome.
Ummm, that is sort of like saying if Connolly had not been shot it would have changed the outcome of the Kennedy assassination.
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And if his wounds had not been fatal, then yes, to keep fighting and stopping the attackers would have changed the final outcome.
And if the BGs had not come in, he would never have been shot. And if the BGs had a flamethrower he would have been burned. And if he had been wearing a magic suit he could have disappeared.
To reiterate...the fact that somedy does something wrong is not evidence that it is wrong to do that thing, no matter how much you try to twist it.
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:36   #57
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Well,

Enough of this serious "I was an expert Witness" I was as well! Still am... Now the most hilarious one, 12 years ago?

It is on my Bio, could not be bothered to punch it up just for the date.

One of my trainees, when he worked for a ATM Machine business, was a real nice guy, everybody liked him, born in Jamaica, guns were not his thing, he passed the program, and worked there for a while, he then decided to try out for the Cops.

Went to the Academy, must have passed, because next time I saw him, he was driving a Police Vehicle.

A friend of mine had his Wife working on the same Squad as he was, no problem getting stuck in in a fight, she said, a real nice guy.

Some time after that I got a visit on my range by two of the Police Association, for his Force.

After some good coffee and equally good muffins (supplied) we got down to business.

Would I defend him in a Police Act charge? "What is wrong with your Instructor?" said I, "He will not" I was told. OK Said I, take me to the scene of the crime!

They still had Revolvers then. S&W Mod. 64, nice smooth actions, well maintained, Safariland rubber grips.

This is his locker, this is similar gun, and these two tracks? Leading to his locker, under the carpet (TWO!) are ADs he fired after cleaning his Mod 64, and reloading it.

"How did he do that Mike, twice?"

I showed them, anyone one know how?
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:54   #58
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First one to answer better be RIGHT!!
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Old 01-03-2010, 16:37   #59
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This guy didn't have a chance. Action VS. Reaction; he's already behind the curve, add to this failure to return fire. It's any bodies guess as to why he had a weapons failure, was it bad ammo? or empty chamber? Bottom line; time ran out quickly, bad guy's seeing the opportunity to finish his threat came quickly..He inadvertently gave the bad guy's a chance and they took it. We know the outcome. I'd like to think had he been able to quickly return fire it could have ended with one or both bad guys shot too, even if he did take some rounds he could have had a fighting chance. That I think is what we would have hoped for. I choose to carry loaded chamber, when my gun is in a holster on my person.
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Old 01-03-2010, 20:36   #60
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This guy didn't have a chance. Action VS. Reaction; he's already behind the curve, add to this failure to return fire. It's any bodies guess as to why he had a weapons failure, was it bad ammo? or empty chamber? Bottom line; time ran out quickly, bad guy's seeing the opportunity to finish his threat came quickly..He inadvertently gave the bad guy's a chance and they took it. We know the outcome. I'd like to think had he been able to quickly return fire it could have ended with one or both bad guys shot too, even if he did take some rounds he could have had a fighting chance. That I think is what we would have hoped for. I choose to carry loaded chamber, when my gun is in a holster on my person.
And yes 2 Hawks, he was behind the curve.

david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven. And the lesson for us is that if WE are behind the curve, we sure don't need to add the extra manipulation of chamber loading while fighting for our lives. No imagine the same man grappling with one of the attackers and then having to chamber load his simi-auto!

And I think most GT readers see this, even if david does not.


Scouse,

I'll take a stab. A stuck slug in the barrel and the discharge put two slugs in the carpet? That or he was trying to 'fan' a DA revolver and got mixed up in the sequence.

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