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Old 01-02-2010, 18:22   #51
David Armstrong
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So david, using your crystal ball you know all these AD/NDs had nothing to do with those who kept or carried chamber empty and forgot the chamber had been loaded?
Once again you try to make something up that was not said and then try to make an issue of it. It's pretty simple, deaf. If the gun is not loaded, it can't AD/ND.
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Chamber empty has shown so many faults that unless you are in a narrow category, as I've posted, then it's a poor choice that can be changed to a better one by either getting a better weapon or training.
Chamber empty carry has some faults, just as chamber loaded carry has some faults, just as they both have their advantages. Which one is a poor choice depends on a variety of factors that can differ for each person and their situation. And given the large number of very well trained individuals who have had AD/NDs, it seems pretty obvious that "better training" doesn't do much. As for "better weapons", perhaps you would care to hazard a guess at the handgun that has accumulated the greatest number of verified AD/NDs in the last couple of decades?
But again, you seem to contradict yourself. You want to claim that people cannot figure out chamber empty versus chamber loaded, but they can remember all the safety rules, follow them all the time, etc.

All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that the guy from Agra was the victim of a surprise attack by multiple assailants where the condition of the chamber or the selection of the weapon had no bearing on the final outcome.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 01-02-2010 at 18:26..
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Old 01-02-2010, 19:25   #52
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I'm the one who suggests taking a look at the entire picture rather than focus on only one small part of the problem.
Ain't that precious. Needin' the gun to go bang RIGHT FRICKIN NOW is, in David's world, one small part of the problem. Wow, just, wow.

Actually your so committed to Empty Chamber it makes one suspect you expert witness testified at a suit against a department when an officer was shot while doing so by department policy... or maybe it was yours.

Anyways.

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I'm always open to whatever works best for that iindividual is what that individual should do, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all-and-the-size-is-the-one-that-fits-me philosophy regularly presented by a few folks here. My mind is quite open.
Except when you disagree with it. Hey, at least I'm honest about my closed-mindedness.

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the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.
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....
One shot is always fatal...
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Hmmm. Looks like you are the only one who has said that. I certainly didn't.
Good, since one shot is not always fatal and the guy didn't die immediately and he was trying to fight but couldn't because his chamber was empty then a reasonable person's mind is open to the very real possibility the guy died because he was carrying with an empty chamber.

Not cooking up academic argument and ignoring evidence to the contrary.

I'm done here.

That guy is the result of advocating empty chamber instead of advoacting more training and practice. Don't cater to inability, strongly advocate improvement.

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Old 01-02-2010, 20:02   #53
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Once again you try to make something up that was not said and then try to make an issue of it. It's pretty simple, deaf. If the gun is not loaded, it can't AD/ND.
Oh yea it can david. Happens all the time when people first rack the slide (and no round ejects) and THEN they take the magazine out.

Can that be cured by training? Yep. Just like keeping ones boogerhook off the bang switch. And that's what one does when carrying with the chamber loaded.


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All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that the guy from Agra was the victim of a surprise attack by multiple assailants where the condition of the chamber or the selection of the weapon had no bearing on the final outcome.
If you include some dead BGs, yea it would have changed the final outcome. And if his wounds had not been fatal, then yes, to keep fighting and stopping the attackers would have changed the final outcome.

The biggist lesson to learn from Agra is that when faced with a sudden attack, having the weapon chamber loaded keeps you from having to TRY to chamber load your weapon while under attack.

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Old 01-03-2010, 04:41   #54
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This is a silly argument, you always carry a gun loaded, ready to fire, anybody who does not, is a half wit.

Sitting here, thick dressing gown on, Glock 19 with 16 rounds up in pocket, go back to bed, on bedside table, showered and dressed, in holster.

Run thumb down side of holster, I can feel the wee lump on the extractor, glance at my pistol, as I holster, live round can be seen, and felt, via the extractor.

This poor assassinated person was not trained, had a crap gun, chamber empty, lived in a country that caused him to be armed with a .32!

His place of business, no man trap door, a crowd could be in the showroom instantly.

Ghandi, a man of peace, stated the "Worse thing the British did, was to take the guns away from the Indian people" I will sip my Coffee to that. A bacon butte might go good with it also.

Every body I know who carry all the time, can clear a Pistol, and fire the first aimed shot in a second and a half. Not with chamber empty, not whilst dragging my Wife to a place of cover, not at the same time as I am pushing a baby crowd, 2-3-4 out of the way, and still drawing and firing.

Anybody, in the US of A, where we live, not carrying a finger press away from a bang (16 of them?, at least) is stupid. They are my honest my feelings.

Back to bed for an hour, it is cold out there, in the 40s, in Florida? BRRRR.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:13   #55
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Ain't that precious. Needin' the gun to go bang RIGHT FRICKIN NOW is, in David's world, one small part of the problem. Wow, just, wow.
Yes, that is correct. It is ONE small part of the overall problem, not just in David's world, but in the world of many organizations and many people. That is what so many of the agenda driven folks fail to realize, the "quick draw gotta shoot a bad guy in a fraction of a second right now" event is only one small part of the overall issue of using a firearm.
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Actually your so committed to Empty Chamber ...
There is more of that agenda problem. I'm not committed to empty chamber. I'm copmmitted to a reasonable and rational assessment of what bets fits the individual needs and situation.
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Hey, at least I'm honest about my closed-mindedness.
That pretty much says and explains it all. When one is agenda driven one can rarely see anything that does not further that agenda.
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Good, since one shot is not always fatal and the guy didn't die immediately and he was trying to fight but couldn't because his chamber was empty then a reasonable person's mind is open to the very real possibility the guy died because he was carrying with an empty chamber.
If one is agenda driven, yes. A more honest view is that an unaware person was attacked by multiple assailants who shot him before he could react with anything.
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I'm done here.
Bye bye!
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That guy is the result of advocating empty chamber instead of advoacting more training and practice. Don't cater to inability, strongly advocate improvement.
Nobody disagrees with that, but the reality of life is that most folks have very limited training and practice resources. I tend to try to focus on the reality of the issue.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:24   #56
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Oh yea it can david. Happens all the time when people first rack the slide (and no round ejects) and THEN they take the magazine out.
Sigh. We see here a perfect example of the agenda. Only someone trying to support a belief could say that a gun is chamber empty when someone has racked the slide and put a round into the chamber. But wait a minute. Aren't these people the same ones you are saying can follow the safety rules and such? Hmmm, seems a bit of a disconnect again.
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Can that be cured by training? Yep.
And yet we regularly see the AD/ND problem in organizations and individuals with extensive training. And that "solution" ignores the fact that so many folks have lilmited training resources. The fact that most folks cannot do brain surgery can be cured by training.
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If you include some dead BGs, yea it would have changed the final outcome.
Ummm, that is sort of like saying if Connolly had not been shot it would have changed the outcome of the Kennedy assassination.
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And if his wounds had not been fatal, then yes, to keep fighting and stopping the attackers would have changed the final outcome.
And if the BGs had not come in, he would never have been shot. And if the BGs had a flamethrower he would have been burned. And if he had been wearing a magic suit he could have disappeared.
To reiterate...the fact that somedy does something wrong is not evidence that it is wrong to do that thing, no matter how much you try to twist it.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:36   #57
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Well,

Enough of this serious "I was an expert Witness" I was as well! Still am... Now the most hilarious one, 12 years ago?

It is on my Bio, could not be bothered to punch it up just for the date.

One of my trainees, when he worked for a ATM Machine business, was a real nice guy, everybody liked him, born in Jamaica, guns were not his thing, he passed the program, and worked there for a while, he then decided to try out for the Cops.

Went to the Academy, must have passed, because next time I saw him, he was driving a Police Vehicle.

A friend of mine had his Wife working on the same Squad as he was, no problem getting stuck in in a fight, she said, a real nice guy.

Some time after that I got a visit on my range by two of the Police Association, for his Force.

After some good coffee and equally good muffins (supplied) we got down to business.

Would I defend him in a Police Act charge? "What is wrong with your Instructor?" said I, "He will not" I was told. OK Said I, take me to the scene of the crime!

They still had Revolvers then. S&W Mod. 64, nice smooth actions, well maintained, Safariland rubber grips.

This is his locker, this is similar gun, and these two tracks? Leading to his locker, under the carpet (TWO!) are ADs he fired after cleaning his Mod 64, and reloading it.

"How did he do that Mike, twice?"

I showed them, anyone one know how?
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:54   #58
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First one to answer better be RIGHT!!
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Old 01-03-2010, 15:37   #59
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This guy didn't have a chance. Action VS. Reaction; he's already behind the curve, add to this failure to return fire. It's any bodies guess as to why he had a weapons failure, was it bad ammo? or empty chamber? Bottom line; time ran out quickly, bad guy's seeing the opportunity to finish his threat came quickly..He inadvertently gave the bad guy's a chance and they took it. We know the outcome. I'd like to think had he been able to quickly return fire it could have ended with one or both bad guys shot too, even if he did take some rounds he could have had a fighting chance. That I think is what we would have hoped for. I choose to carry loaded chamber, when my gun is in a holster on my person.
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Old 01-03-2010, 19:36   #60
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This guy didn't have a chance. Action VS. Reaction; he's already behind the curve, add to this failure to return fire. It's any bodies guess as to why he had a weapons failure, was it bad ammo? or empty chamber? Bottom line; time ran out quickly, bad guy's seeing the opportunity to finish his threat came quickly..He inadvertently gave the bad guy's a chance and they took it. We know the outcome. I'd like to think had he been able to quickly return fire it could have ended with one or both bad guys shot too, even if he did take some rounds he could have had a fighting chance. That I think is what we would have hoped for. I choose to carry loaded chamber, when my gun is in a holster on my person.
And yes 2 Hawks, he was behind the curve.

david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven. And the lesson for us is that if WE are behind the curve, we sure don't need to add the extra manipulation of chamber loading while fighting for our lives. No imagine the same man grappling with one of the attackers and then having to chamber load his simi-auto!

And I think most GT readers see this, even if david does not.


Scouse,

I'll take a stab. A stuck slug in the barrel and the discharge put two slugs in the carpet? That or he was trying to 'fan' a DA revolver and got mixed up in the sequence.

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Old 01-03-2010, 20:27   #61
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And yes 2 Hawks, he was behind the curve.

david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven. And the lesson for us is that if WE are behind the curve, we sure don't need to add the extra manipulation of chamber loading while fighting for our lives. No imagine the same man grappling with one of the attackers and then having to chamber load his simi-auto!

And I think most GT readers see this, even if david does not.


Scouse,

I'll take a stab. A stuck slug in the barrel and the discharge put two slugs in the carpet? That or he was trying to 'fan' a DA revolver and got mixed up in the sequence.Deaf
Sat on the bench, put the 6 rounds in by hand (not with a speed loader) when he closed the cylinder! He pulled the hammer back! CLICK!

Why? I don't know, he did not either, the quickest way to lower it after messing around, was the loud way! The shock of the shot firing, he pulled the trigger again!

BANG/BANG I will tell you what happened at the tribunal when we meet Deaf. Funny.
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Old 01-03-2010, 20:38   #62
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david says this is 'agenda' driven. No, it's lesson driven.
If the lesson you get from this is "carry C3 is a bad thing" then you are being driven by the agenda instead of the facts. I don't claim to read every forum on the net, but I'm on a fair number of them, and this has popped up on a few, including another thread on this site. And this thread is the only one I've run across where a couple of folks are trying to argue that this is evidence that C3 is bad.

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from Scouse:
Sat on the bench, put the 6 rounds in by hand (not with a speed loader) when he closed the cylinder! He pulled the hammer back! CLICK!
Why? I don't know, he did not either, the quickest way to lower it after messing around, was the loud way! The shock of the shot firing, he pulled the trigger again!
Hmmm. According to deaf, that should be considered evidence of how bad carrying a loaded firearm is instead of bad gunhadling skills. And this fellow had a quality weapon and (I assume) fairly good training, which is supposed to solve this problem, again, according to deaf.
FYI, I've encountered that second round startle reflex shot a number of times when investigating shootings, both with revolvers and autos.
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Old 01-03-2010, 20:44   #63
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Yea, that poor guy was assassinated.
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Old 01-03-2010, 21:51   #64
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If the lesson you get from this is "carry C3 is a bad thing" then you are being driven by the agenda instead of the facts. I don't claim to read every forum on the net, but I'm on a fair number of them, and this has popped up on a few, including another thread on this site. And this thread is the only one I've run across where a couple of folks are trying to argue that this is evidence that C3 is bad.


Hmmm. According to deaf, that should be considered evidence of how bad carrying a loaded firearm is instead of bad gunhadling skills. And this fellow had a quality weapon and (I assume) fairly good training, which is supposed to solve this problem, again, according to deaf.
FYI, I've encountered that second round startle reflex shot a number of times when investigating shootings, both with revolvers and autos.
Well I trained him first!
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:54   #65
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opps, I was done here.

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Old 01-04-2010, 15:38   #66
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Hmmm. According to deaf, that should be considered evidence of how bad carrying a loaded firearm is instead of bad gunhadling skills. And this fellow had a quality weapon and (I assume) fairly good training, which is supposed to solve this problem, again, according to deaf.
FYI, I've encountered that second round startle reflex shot a number of times when investigating shootings, both with revolvers and autos.

Maybe the 'agenda' driven is more of david's than anyone else.

And the facts I point out, agenda or not, are facts.

Chamber loading under adverse conditions is asking for trouble. Wither cause you have only one hand, or you are grappling, or you short stroke, you still are asking for trouble, and only a few, very narrow categories of circumstances would give reason to carry your weapon in that state.

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Old 01-04-2010, 16:32   #67
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Put me on the spot now Deaf! With the cylinder open, pull the release latch back, that allows the hammer to be cocked, I think, it's a while since I tried that trick.

What my student did was this, sitting on his bench... With six rounds in the cylinder HE COCKED IT! I don't know why, but in lowering the hammer, it went off... TWICE! Like slip, and then yank on the trigger. Two wee tunnels all the way to his locker, under the carpet.

I was paid, and a Glass Beer Mug!



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And david says he is some kind of court expert.

Hmmmm.

Guys on GT, get a Smith 64, empty please, and cock the weapon. Now TRY to open the cylinder! Hmmm don't work so hot, does it?

Now uncock the 64 and open the cylinder. Now with the cylinder open, cock the hammer. Hmmm, don't work so hot either, does it?

In fact, unless THE REVOLVER IS DEFECTIVE, you can't**. So yep, I'd carry that one chamber empty (in fact I wouldn't carry it at all and I think the guy who had the AD is completly innocent.)

But the 'expert', david, thinks it is the way it's supposed to work. Tells you alot, doesn't it?

Maybe the 'agenda' driven is more of david's than anyone else.

Deaf

** actually there IS a way, but it takes some doing and you have to want to bypass the safties.
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Old 01-04-2010, 17:21   #68
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Put me on the spot now Deaf! With the cylinder open, pull the release latch back, that allows the hammer to be cocked, I think, it's a while since I tried that trick.

What my student did was this, sitting on his bench... With six rounds in the cylinder HE COCKED IT! I don't know why, but in lowering the hammer, it went off... TWICE! Like slip, and then yank on the trigger. Two wee tunnels all the way to his locker, under the carpet.

I was paid, and a Glass Beer Mug!
I saw that Scouse after I posted it and figured he cocked the dang piece after he close the cylinder! Yea, no idea why he did that.

You also saw the trick to get past the safties!

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Old 01-05-2010, 10:22   #69
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And david says he is some kind of court expert.
Actually the courts have said that. Sort of an independent third-party review, as it were.
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But the 'expert', david, thinks it is the way it's supposed to work. Tells you alot, doesn't it?
Since David does not think that is the way it is supposed to work, and since David did not say that was the way it was supposed to work, yes, it does tell us a lot but not about David. It tells us a lot about folks with an agenda who make things up instead of dealing with what was actually said.
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Maybe the 'agenda' driven is more of david's than anyone else.
Hard to argue someone has an agenda when they are advocating each person should do what is best for them in their situation, as opposed to the "everyone needs to do it this way no matter what" perspective.
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And the facts I point out, agenda or not, are facts.
Some are facts, some are not. Where the agenda comes in is the one-sided presentation, without any consideration or even recognition of the other elements that do not support the agenda.

As happens so often, deaf, you have again chosen to go with the "I'm going to make things up and blame it on someone else" school of discussion when you cannot dispute the facts and the reality. And we've seen enough of the presentation, both here and on the other thread, for folks to come to a conclusion. So I'll follow the lead of PhoneCop and be done here. Bye bye.

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Old 01-05-2010, 11:35   #70
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There's no way to know if he would live or die if he had a round in the chamber. But, he would have had a chance to put a few holes in the BG's. I watched the time and most anyone could empty a mag in that amount of time.

Still no garantee he lives, but I would rather have "a" chance than "no" chance. I've seen a lot of videos where the BG's took off running when someone started returning fire.

For me, I'll keep one in the chamber.
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Old 01-07-2010, 20:10   #71
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Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!
More cops have died with revolvers while trying to reload than cops have died with Autos that malfunctioned. Revolvers are a still viable for self defense but they are obsolete. The biggest draw back is slow reload times and a small ammo capacity. They are good for self defense against 1 armed assailant. But if you are out numbered a revolver is a poor choice.
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:32   #72
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More cops have died with revolvers while trying to reload than cops have died with Autos that malfunctioned. Revolvers are a still viable for self defense but they are obsolete. The biggest draw back is slow reload times and a small ammo capacity. They are good for self defense against 1 armed assailant. But if you are out numbered a revolver is a poor choice.
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+1

The Evolution of the one hand gun, single shot pistol, 6 shot revolver, pour in powder to metallic cartridges, the self loader.

The hi-capacity self loader, replace steel with polymer. Then the constant improvement in every which way to the existing company weapons, at this time culminating in things like Fiber Optic sights, triggers with constant release weight and tiny resets, all to give people who carry these one hand fighting tools the best possible chance to staying alive in a confrontation, with one, or multiple assailants, then we talk about regressing to 1800 technology?
The revolver as a main on person carry weapon?

Or removing one of the steps that is built in to the self loading pistols instant readiness? Like deploying with no round in the breach?

MORE IS BETTER ALWAYS, I coined that phrase in the mid 1980s with the advent of the first move towards hi capacity pistols that I felt were viable for use by Police. I have not changed my mind.
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Old 01-08-2010, 17:06   #73
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And that guys is why I recomend if one carries a revolver... they carry TWO. The NY reload is no joke!

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Old 01-08-2010, 18:18   #74
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And that guys is why I recommend if one carries a revolver... they carry TWO. The NY reload is no joke!

Deaf
Sorry Deaf!!!! Its all about rolling shots, not 6 and dig up an other gun!
Better, and more skin on grip, better sights, better trigger, better ergonomics, lower center of barrel to height above hand, more weight in hand, etc,etc.
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Old 01-08-2010, 21:33   #75
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Sorry Deaf!!!! Its all about rolling shots, not 6 and dig up an other gun!
Better, and more skin on grip, better sights, better trigger, better ergonomics, lower center of barrel to height above hand, more weight in hand, etc,etc.
Well Scouse, I didn't say a wheelgun was THE pick! My 642 is the secondary, the 26 (Glock) the primary. But if one decides the wheelgun is the way they want to go, then I suggest two!

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