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Old 12-28-2009, 18:18   #1
Jon_R
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Pistol from Stripped Receiver

Before things went crazy with the election I bought three AR Stripped Lowers from a manufacturer shipped to a local FFL. On the 4473 they where transfered to me as receivers vs. long gun or handgun. My state has no registration and I was not given a copy of the 4473 which is standard I have never been given a copy for a firearm purchase.

If I wanted to build an AR pistol from one I think that would be legal.

If I am questioned on what I have how do I prove I have not put a short barrel and removed the stock from a rifle? In essence having a non NFA registered SBR.

Who would the burden of proof be on? Would I have to prove it is a pistol / not a rifle or would the authorities have to prove it is not a pistol / is a rifle? How would anything be proved by anyone one way or the other?

Anyone know?
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Old 12-28-2009, 18:20   #2
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Tagged,......very good question.
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Old 12-28-2009, 20:07   #3
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It's not controlled or restricted by what the dealer puts on his copy of the 4473. As you have learned you don't get a copy anyway. ATF recommends you by from the receiver maker with a letter stating it was sold new to you as a bare receiver. It's not a law that you so it this way. The 4473 is not a control of this in any way but the dealer is not suppose to put "new" if it was ever transferred on a 4473 before even if it was never used. Not that this should matter. The 4473 gives you nothing. If you bought it as a receiver and it wasn't built as a rifle it's legal to make a pistol. The differences can come if a receiver had a built in pistol grip and no buttstock of if a receiver has a buttstock. If you didn't by the receiver directly from receiver then the maker has no idea what happened to it after it left them and before you bought it from somebody else so your chances of getting a letter stating it was sold to you as a bare receiver that was never a rifle are slim but again this is not required by law. If you bought a bare receiver as "new" then you shouldn't have an issue making a pistol with it. You are suppose to be at least 21 to buy any receiver from a dealer.
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Old 12-28-2009, 20:20   #4
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In my case I bought it from Essential Arms (manufacturer) and shipped it to my local FFL for the transfer. I did not buy it from the FFL I paid Essential Arms directly on my CC and had the FFL fax their FFL to them. They where completely stripped lowers no stock no parts kit, etc.

I am just wondering if I get pulled over on the way to the range or shooting at the range and a LEO asks me for my SBR tax stamp for my (rifle to him) 10.5" barreled pistol without a stock where I go from there and who the burden on proof would be on. I assume he won't take my word for it that it is a pistol but he or anyone can't prove it isn't as long as there is no stock attached.

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It's not controlled or restricted by what the dealer puts on his copy of the 4473. As you have learned you don't get a copy anyway. ATF recommends you by from the receiver maker with a letter stating it was sold new to you as a bare receiver. It's not a law that you so it this way. The 4473 is not a control of this in any way but the dealer is not suppose to put "new" if it was ever transferred on a 4473 before even if it was never used. Not that this should matter. The 4473 gives you nothing. If you bought it as a receiver and it wasn't built as a rifle it's legal to make a pistol. The differences can come if a receiver had a built in pistol grip and no buttstock of if a receiver has a buttstock. If you didn't by the receiver directly from receiver then the maker has no idea what happened to it after it left them and before you bought it from somebody else so your chances of getting a letter stating it was sold to you as a bare receiver that was never a rifle are slim but again this is not required by law. If you bought a bare receiver as "new" then you shouldn't have an issue making a pistol with it. You are suppose to be at least 21 to buy any receiver from a dealer.
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Old 12-28-2009, 20:27   #5
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You don't have to prove anything. The ATF recommends you get a letter from the maker stating they sold you a new bare receiver that was never a rifle but it is not required.
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Old 12-28-2009, 22:33   #6
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If I were to get pulled over and hassled. I would ask where the shoulder stock was on my AR pistol. IF he wants to claim my pistol is a rifle. Then wait for the "have a good day" after he asks someone else that knows weapons law.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:03   #7
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Good idea... An AR pistol would be a cool build. Just don't paint the tip orange.
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Old 12-29-2009, 16:44   #8
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It would be my understanding if it was transferred as a stripped lower, never assembled into a rifle, it would have been transferred as "other", meaning neither was sepecified. Thus you can build it into whatever you want.

The issue you are going to have is the buffer tube. You wouldn't want to just use a regular 6 position buffer tube and remove the stock. IMO that has the potential to land you into trouble. You need to use a buffer tube that is not capable of having a stock put on it.

Other than that you are worrying too much.
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Old 12-29-2009, 16:58   #9
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Originally Posted by jdeere_man View Post
It would be my understanding if it was transferred as a stripped lower, never assembled into a rifle, it would have been transferred as "other", meaning neither was sepecified. Thus you can build it into whatever you want.

The issue you are going to have is the buffer tube. You wouldn't want to just use a regular 6 position buffer tube and remove the stock. IMO that has the potential to land you into trouble. You need to use a buffer tube that is not capable of having a stock put on it.

Other than that you are worrying too much.
I've seen the pistol specific tubes that have this big ole sling loop on the back to prevent any stock from being slid on. The sling loop was supposed to be for you to sling it on one shoulder kinda like how the USSS did their Uzis.

I think it is illegal in CA anyway since the magazine is not in the grip, which makes it EVIL! Only pistols which have the magazine in the grip and hold 10 rounds are acceptable at this point. Bobby Boucher's mother was right, AR anything is the work of the DEVIL!
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Old 12-29-2009, 17:48   #10
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If you build it with the proper parts, nobody can hassle you in the first place. If you get pulled over, don't offer to show your firearms. What the heck makes you think a cop that just happened to pull you over would be looking at your firearms for in the first place?
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Old 12-29-2009, 18:07   #11
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Originally Posted by Glocks&Ducs View Post
If you build it with the proper parts, nobody can hassle you in the first place. If you get pulled over, don't offer to show your firearms. What the heck makes you think a cop that just happened to pull you over would be looking at your firearms for in the first place?
It would be more if you where shooting at the range. The way the law is written I just don't think it can really be enforced unless you do something really obvious and dumb.

I could take my stripped receiver make it a rifle shoot it for a year then snap on a 10" upper remove the stock and replace it with a pistol buffer tube and shoot it for a year as a pistol. Technically this would be a violation but unless someone has video or pictures showing me with it as a rifle and you can see the serial numbers in the picture how would this ever be an enforceable law.

What really got me thinking about it was the thread about the guy open carrying a AK Pistol and being detained for 2.5 hours while the officers determined it was a a pistol and not a cut down rifle. In the case of a AR where I bought the stripped receiver what would they do for these 2.5 hours figuring it out or would I find myself in a cell on federal weapons charges. Granted I have no desire to open carry an AR pistol but what if the same thing happened at a public range? About all they can do is ask me is that a legal pistol or an illegal SBR. I would be pretty dumb to answer it is an illegal SBR.

I just thought it would an interesting discussion.
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Old 12-29-2009, 21:58   #12
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Now you guys got me thinking of another way to waste my money... how would an AR pistol with a 20" SP-1 upper sound?
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Old 12-30-2009, 18:08   #13
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Now you guys got me thinking of another way to waste my money... how would an AR pistol with a 20" SP-1 upper sound?
It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.
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Old 12-30-2009, 18:27   #14
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It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.
Man... Why does the law always have to get in the way of my fun???

Guess no foregrip on my pistol either then....
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Old 12-30-2009, 20:11   #15
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Quote:
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Man... Why does the law always have to get in the way of my fun???

Guess no foregrip on my pistol either then....
Nope no fore grip. Never heard any rule against a 20" tho..
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Old 12-30-2009, 20:16   #16
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Quote:
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It would sound illegal. Over 16" barrel will be considered a SBR.
Huh???
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Old 12-30-2009, 20:21   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_R View Post
Before things went crazy with the election I bought three AR Stripped Lowers from a manufacturer shipped to a local FFL. On the 4473 they where transfered to me as receivers vs. long gun or handgun. My state has no registration and I was not given a copy of the 4473 which is standard I have never been given a copy for a firearm purchase.

If I wanted to build an AR pistol from one I think that would be legal.

If I am questioned on what I have how do I prove I have not put a short barrel and removed the stock from a rifle? In essence having a non NFA registered SBR.

Who would the burden of proof be on? Would I have to prove it is a pistol / not a rifle or would the authorities have to prove it is not a pistol / is a rifle? How would anything be proved by anyone one way or the other?

Anyone know?
IANAL, but I would say that as long as it has never been made into either, you can make a handgun from it. The options on the 4473 have been changed. Bare lowers, among other things, are now checked as "OTHER". To transfer "OTHER", the recipient must be over 21. Best answer is to check and find out. Better to be told "NO" than to be told "Ben Dover".....
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Old 12-30-2009, 20:23   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_R View Post
In my case I bought it from Essential Arms (manufacturer) and shipped it to my local FFL for the transfer. I did not buy it from the FFL I paid Essential Arms directly on my CC and had the FFL fax their FFL to them. They where completely stripped lowers no stock no parts kit, etc.

I am just wondering if I get pulled over on the way to the range or shooting at the range and a LEO asks me for my SBR tax stamp for my (rifle to him) 10.5" barreled pistol without a stock where I go from there and who the burden on proof would be on. I assume he won't take my word for it that it is a pistol but he or anyone can't prove it isn't as long as there is no stock attached.
Do they have parks in Florida?
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Old 12-30-2009, 20:25   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjtroutbum View Post
If I were to get pulled over and hassled. I would ask where the shoulder stock was on my AR pistol. IF he wants to claim my pistol is a rifle. Then wait for the "have a good day" after he asks someone else that knows weapons law.
Wrong angle. IF you take the shoulder stock off an AR-15 and put a less than 16" barrel on it, it IS a SBR. Because it started as a rifle.
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Old 12-30-2009, 20:26   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
Good idea... An AR pistol would be a cool build. Just don't paint the tip orange.
OR leave the muzzle black and paint the rest of the firearm orange with a can of Krylon. Drippy, runny, streaky Krylon.....
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