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Old 01-06-2010, 07:33   #21
steve4102
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As the OP said, if you don't want to take the time to learn, you won't be much of a reloader, in fact, you could be a danger to others on the range and yourself. Those people should just go and buy their ammo. It would be safer for everyone including the shooter.
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:08   #22
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Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.

Funny, sound like a bunch of liberals that want something for nuttin. Be a man an do some work. You can then take pride in your effort and accomplishments. Pride in Workmanship and Skill....sure do miss those days.

Started Loading in 1984. I have been offering Handloading Classes for almost 10 years. I am always willing to help those who are willing to do the work required. I am still learning everyday.

ETA. I have had many employees over the years. I found it was much easier to hire 18-25 year olds. You didnt have to train them because

"THEY ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING".

Last edited by PBKing; 01-06-2010 at 08:41..
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:26   #23
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When did sharing your favorite load for a caliber/gun become taboo? Seriously, thats nuts. If the end user doesn't cross check your load with something else thats his problem. Not sharing your pet loads in a reloading forum is going to be kinda boring.
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:40   #24
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When did sharing your favorite load for a caliber/gun become taboo? Seriously, thats nuts. If the end user doesn't cross check your load with something else thats his problem. Not sharing your pet loads in a reloading forum is going to be kinda boring.
Boring? Try turning off the puter and work up some loads. If that is boring your in the wrong hobby.

Last edited by PBKing; 01-06-2010 at 08:45..
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:48   #25
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Not sharing is about as boring a form of interaction I have come across. So basically

Someone asks a question

"Whats a good load for USPSA?"

Answer

"Use some titegroup and figure it out yourself"

NICE!

For example, I and others have shared their Solo 1000 loads many a time. It has resulted in a lot of very interesting discussion. Had that not happened it would have been a lot less interestiong around here.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:07   #26
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I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.
This statement sums it up for me. As a rule, I don't give out loads anymore only because the impression I get from a lot of new posters is that they have not performed any reading / study on the art of reloading. If someone demonstrates that they have reloading knowledge to me, I'll give them the load data for every load I've ever developed.

I simply will not encourage shortcutting when I have no other opinion of the poster (this is the internet, remember?) and don't know if he is simply going to take a mid to high level load, misread the COL, and think his finished ammo will function fine in his weapons.

Last edited by PCJim; 01-06-2010 at 09:56..
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:50   #27
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They are not "Answers" they are simply one solution to a process that has many solutions. It's pretty obvious to most people that ask "Whats a good load" that they realize that there are going to be more then one solution provided. Otherwise it would have been pretty easy for them to find the "answer" you describe.

The reality is for some reason at this time we have a couple people who don't want to share and also don't think it's a good idea to share pet loads. Thats fine. Don't do it. No one is going to notice that you didn't contribute. The majority is not going to care and they are going to share whatever they feel is appropriate. It's amazing a place like www.brianenos.com/forums can share these things and not get people all bent out of shape over it. No one is forcing you to share or even read the thread. Walk away from those threads if you don't like them. Post a little warning if you think thats appropriate. In the end you going to feel like a guy trying to hold back the tide. It's never going to happen. People are going to share because thats why they come here. To share what they learn. In some cases that going to include thier "pet load" for their guns.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:52   #28
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Oh the Horror.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...&#entry1127110
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:53   #29
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Technically there is no need for a reloading forum at all. There's all kinds of data manuals available with how-to's provided. That said, there are a lot of new loaders with the jitters, hard to understand manuals on dies and equipment. Hundreds of combinations of bullets, brass, powder, primers. Plus reloaders with years of experience that haven't tested the latest powders or latest hi-tech bullets. I like to have forums where opinions are given and getting others experience with whatever. Like already mentioned, take advice given and compare with published data and do the testing yourself. THAT"S THE REASON for having a reloading forum!
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:07   #30
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Boring? Try turning off the puter and work up some loads. If that is boring your in the wrong hobby.
This attitude is pure rubbish.

I am fairly new to reloading (just started in July), but I'm already close to the 10,000 round mark. So I can't say, "I've been doing it for years, blah, blah". But I TOTALLY agree with Steve (Colorado4Wheel) in that people sharing their knowledge and experience is a GOOD thing.

Sure, I could load, chrono, load, chrono, test for accuracy, repeat, ad naseum... but I don't see that as a productive use of my time. I am NOT looking for anything near max loads, but merely functional loads that others use. I DO realize I will have to load & chrono some, but there's no sense doing that endlessly, when I can narrow in first with some good info (that I vet in other places).

If this was a forum where nothing but WILDCAT loads or rare/unusual cartridges were being discussed, then I might agree with you more. But in general, we have folks coming in loading for 9mm, .40, .45ACP... all of which have MORE than enough "standard recipes" with typical powders that can be shared with others.


If you don't *like* recipe-related questions/threads... stay out of them.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:12   #31
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I simply will not encourage shortcutting when I have no other opinion of the poster (this is the internet, remember?) and don't know if he is simply going to take a mid to high level load, misread the COL, and think his finished ammo will function fine in his weapons.
If he's that incapable, then quoting STANDARD LOADS FROM THE MANUAL would get him in trouble. By that I mean... doing something like scanning and posting a page straight from Speer or Lyman.

Loading MINIMUM powder level with a overly short COL could cause problems, so what are you gonna do?

No, I disagree with that entire thought process.... "I'm not gonna help him because he MIGHT be an idiot and I will get blamed".


No thanks, I'll share my knowledge/experience when asked.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:20   #32
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I resent that comment. I help idiots all the time.
I love this forum. Talk about tough skinned, after 7 years lurking and 2 years posting I can now sharpen my straight edge on my forearm whilst posting.

Last edited by PBKing; 01-06-2010 at 10:26..
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Old 01-06-2010, 11:03   #33
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I love this forum.
This forum has been an INVALUABLE resource for me. Without the ability to reload (which I researched heavily before I got into)... I would not be able to shoot/practice to the extent I do.

This current ammo situation IS going to drive newbies (such as I was (still am?)) in here, and we have to be cognizant of that. Certainly pointing them to the powder manufacturer's website is good. But saying things like "Yes, I DO have experience with Montana Gold 147gr bullets out of my G17 with xx powder and xx results) isn't going to be found in Lyman, Speers, or on any powder website.

The beauty of the internet (and this forum) is we can find explicit examples using our chosen components for loads...
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Old 01-06-2010, 13:21   #34
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This forum has been an INVALUABLE resource for me. Without the ability to reload (which I researched heavily before I got into)... I would not be able to shoot/practice to the extent I do.

This current ammo situation IS going to drive newbies (such as I was (still am?)) in here, and we have to be cognizant of that. Certainly pointing them to the powder manufacturer's website is good. But saying things like "Yes, I DO have experience with Montana Gold 147gr bullets out of my G17 with xx powder and xx results) isn't going to be found in Lyman, Speers, or on any powder website.

The beauty of the internet (and this forum) is we can find explicit examples using our chosen components for loads...
Agreed....Lets build on that.

OK now I am on your side now what?
All this talk about love, sharing and tampons got me thinkin I better get checked for estrogen poisoning.
I dont know, is that stuff good for a Reloading/Handloading forum?

Last edited by PBKing; 01-06-2010 at 13:29..
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Old 01-06-2010, 13:30   #35
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Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!
No, you are taking it a bit out of context. Asking for suggestions is fine, asking "is this load safe", how would I know? I don't have your gun to test them in. If the person asking has a reloading manual, he can verify the load being within load data specs.
I think it's just some of us have been reloading for so long we take many things for granted & you see so many newbs ask questions that we all learned for ourselves by reading a fricking manual or a loading ref like The ABCs. Again, there are no short cuts to safe reloading. Throw in the anonimity of the internet & some things can be taken the wrong way.
I can certainly give you fine, accurate, safe loading data for any handgun round going, but did you learn anything or just plug & play? IF you used the middle avg. data from 2 manuals, you would be able to safely make up any handgun load. Will it be the best? Unlikely, that is what the testing is for. Not to mention the avg. shooter is not even capable of determining what is accurate or not. If you can't shoot 2" groups at 15yds from a bench, pretty tough to determine if ammo A is better than ammo B.
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Old 01-06-2010, 13:48   #36
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Ironic how many data seekers today were doubting the economics of handloading not that long ago.
I am extremely grateful to the longtimers who mentored me and to the many of you who have unwittingly contributed to my continuing education. Thank You
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Old 01-06-2010, 14:10   #37
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Last I checked, the load data manuals don't tell me if a load will be smokey using lead bullets, have too much muzzle flash using a certain powder, spill out of the top using a progressive press, and on and on. The manuals are great, but its the first hand experience and more detailed description of the process and more importantly the results I seek and often find here. Thanks to those who actually DO take the time to expand instead of a broken record of RTFM..
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Old 01-06-2010, 16:30   #38
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Last I checked, the load data manuals don't tell me if a load will be smokey using lead bullets, have too much muzzle flash using a certain powder, spill out of the top using a progressive press, and on and on.
Bingo.

Not to try to put a price on safety, but I (for one) cannot afford to buy 7 manuals, and then 7 more next year when the revisions come out. I rely on the manuals I have, and mfg data on websites - but I also have to rely on the knowledge of others to factor into the mix.

A manual may tell me that 6gr of HS6 is fine for a FMJ 124gr bullet, but what if I've got a 115 Lead HP bullet? If there's no data in the manuals I have, nothing on the website - what OAL should I use? Should I buy 4 more manuals (that I can't check before buying, as they are shrinkwrapped), or hop in a forum and say "Hey, I'm trying to load THIS bullet with THIS charge, at 1.125 OAL. Is this safe?"

Hell, manuals even contradict each other. Sometimes you just want a REAL PERSON to ask for feedback. They might say "well, it's safe... but a poor recipe compared to these other 2 i've used." Or, "Yes, it's safe and reliable. But as you are brand new at reloading, that's a powder that you might not want to use, as the safety margins for weight/errors are very slim. Try this powder instead."

Sorry, I'll go this route before just loading up the round based on some guessing, use a low charge, and hope to hell nothing blows up in a bad way. Each gun is different, for sure, but I can absolutely say - with no reservation - that if someone asks "Is 15gr of HS6 a safe round for 9mm?" the answer is always going to be "No, it isn't".

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Old 01-06-2010, 16:35   #39
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I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.
More like the student asking for help, guidance and instruction during the class room time, before the test. Ya know, making sure he or she understands the material well enough to take that test.

I also doubt very much that the teacher would call the student a "dumb-ass" or "stupid" for asking if he or she could have the answers to the test. Lazy, yes, but a Dumb-ass NO.

Not only do comments like this make it hard for a new guy to "fit in" and feel welcome, it takes away from the friendly, helpful atmosphere of this forum. I think that the persons that use terms like this over the Internet would be a little more diplomatic in a face to face situation. I know I've said (written) some things on these forums that I am not proud of and that I would never say to a persons face.

So, if you think I'm a Dumb-ass or Lazy fine, maybe I am, but I'm still gunna ask if I need some help, answers or opinions. If you don't like the question, say so, but at least try and be a little less hostile about it.


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Old 01-06-2010, 16:54   #40
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Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by RLDS45S Reloading
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Freak is that you? <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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