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Old 01-06-2010, 08:07   #26
PCJim
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I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.
This statement sums it up for me. As a rule, I don't give out loads anymore only because the impression I get from a lot of new posters is that they have not performed any reading / study on the art of reloading. If someone demonstrates that they have reloading knowledge to me, I'll give them the load data for every load I've ever developed.

I simply will not encourage shortcutting when I have no other opinion of the poster (this is the internet, remember?) and don't know if he is simply going to take a mid to high level load, misread the COL, and think his finished ammo will function fine in his weapons.

Last edited by PCJim; 01-06-2010 at 08:56..
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:50   #27
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They are not "Answers" they are simply one solution to a process that has many solutions. It's pretty obvious to most people that ask "Whats a good load" that they realize that there are going to be more then one solution provided. Otherwise it would have been pretty easy for them to find the "answer" you describe.

The reality is for some reason at this time we have a couple people who don't want to share and also don't think it's a good idea to share pet loads. Thats fine. Don't do it. No one is going to notice that you didn't contribute. The majority is not going to care and they are going to share whatever they feel is appropriate. It's amazing a place like www.brianenos.com/forums can share these things and not get people all bent out of shape over it. No one is forcing you to share or even read the thread. Walk away from those threads if you don't like them. Post a little warning if you think thats appropriate. In the end you going to feel like a guy trying to hold back the tide. It's never going to happen. People are going to share because thats why they come here. To share what they learn. In some cases that going to include thier "pet load" for their guns.
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:52   #28
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Oh the Horror.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...&#entry1127110
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:53   #29
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Technically there is no need for a reloading forum at all. There's all kinds of data manuals available with how-to's provided. That said, there are a lot of new loaders with the jitters, hard to understand manuals on dies and equipment. Hundreds of combinations of bullets, brass, powder, primers. Plus reloaders with years of experience that haven't tested the latest powders or latest hi-tech bullets. I like to have forums where opinions are given and getting others experience with whatever. Like already mentioned, take advice given and compare with published data and do the testing yourself. THAT"S THE REASON for having a reloading forum!
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:07   #30
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Boring? Try turning off the puter and work up some loads. If that is boring your in the wrong hobby.
This attitude is pure rubbish.

I am fairly new to reloading (just started in July), but I'm already close to the 10,000 round mark. So I can't say, "I've been doing it for years, blah, blah". But I TOTALLY agree with Steve (Colorado4Wheel) in that people sharing their knowledge and experience is a GOOD thing.

Sure, I could load, chrono, load, chrono, test for accuracy, repeat, ad naseum... but I don't see that as a productive use of my time. I am NOT looking for anything near max loads, but merely functional loads that others use. I DO realize I will have to load & chrono some, but there's no sense doing that endlessly, when I can narrow in first with some good info (that I vet in other places).

If this was a forum where nothing but WILDCAT loads or rare/unusual cartridges were being discussed, then I might agree with you more. But in general, we have folks coming in loading for 9mm, .40, .45ACP... all of which have MORE than enough "standard recipes" with typical powders that can be shared with others.


If you don't *like* recipe-related questions/threads... stay out of them.
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WTF?! How a cheap can an old, the old fart get?!
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:12   #31
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I simply will not encourage shortcutting when I have no other opinion of the poster (this is the internet, remember?) and don't know if he is simply going to take a mid to high level load, misread the COL, and think his finished ammo will function fine in his weapons.
If he's that incapable, then quoting STANDARD LOADS FROM THE MANUAL would get him in trouble. By that I mean... doing something like scanning and posting a page straight from Speer or Lyman.

Loading MINIMUM powder level with a overly short COL could cause problems, so what are you gonna do?

No, I disagree with that entire thought process.... "I'm not gonna help him because he MIGHT be an idiot and I will get blamed".


No thanks, I'll share my knowledge/experience when asked.
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WTF?! How a cheap can an old, the old fart get?!
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:20   #32
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I resent that comment. I help idiots all the time.
I love this forum. Talk about tough skinned, after 7 years lurking and 2 years posting I can now sharpen my straight edge on my forearm whilst posting.

Last edited by PBKing; 01-06-2010 at 09:26..
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:03   #33
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I love this forum.
This forum has been an INVALUABLE resource for me. Without the ability to reload (which I researched heavily before I got into)... I would not be able to shoot/practice to the extent I do.

This current ammo situation IS going to drive newbies (such as I was (still am?)) in here, and we have to be cognizant of that. Certainly pointing them to the powder manufacturer's website is good. But saying things like "Yes, I DO have experience with Montana Gold 147gr bullets out of my G17 with xx powder and xx results) isn't going to be found in Lyman, Speers, or on any powder website.

The beauty of the internet (and this forum) is we can find explicit examples using our chosen components for loads...
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:21   #34
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This forum has been an INVALUABLE resource for me. Without the ability to reload (which I researched heavily before I got into)... I would not be able to shoot/practice to the extent I do.

This current ammo situation IS going to drive newbies (such as I was (still am?)) in here, and we have to be cognizant of that. Certainly pointing them to the powder manufacturer's website is good. But saying things like "Yes, I DO have experience with Montana Gold 147gr bullets out of my G17 with xx powder and xx results) isn't going to be found in Lyman, Speers, or on any powder website.

The beauty of the internet (and this forum) is we can find explicit examples using our chosen components for loads...
Agreed....Lets build on that.

OK now I am on your side now what?
All this talk about love, sharing and tampons got me thinkin I better get checked for estrogen poisoning.
I dont know, is that stuff good for a Reloading/Handloading forum?

Last edited by PBKing; 01-06-2010 at 12:29..
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:30   #35
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BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!
No, you are taking it a bit out of context. Asking for suggestions is fine, asking "is this load safe", how would I know? I don't have your gun to test them in. If the person asking has a reloading manual, he can verify the load being within load data specs.
I think it's just some of us have been reloading for so long we take many things for granted & you see so many newbs ask questions that we all learned for ourselves by reading a fricking manual or a loading ref like The ABCs. Again, there are no short cuts to safe reloading. Throw in the anonimity of the internet & some things can be taken the wrong way.
I can certainly give you fine, accurate, safe loading data for any handgun round going, but did you learn anything or just plug & play? IF you used the middle avg. data from 2 manuals, you would be able to safely make up any handgun load. Will it be the best? Unlikely, that is what the testing is for. Not to mention the avg. shooter is not even capable of determining what is accurate or not. If you can't shoot 2" groups at 15yds from a bench, pretty tough to determine if ammo A is better than ammo B.
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Last edited by fredj338; 01-06-2010 at 12:39..
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:48   #36
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Ironic how many data seekers today were doubting the economics of handloading not that long ago.
I am extremely grateful to the longtimers who mentored me and to the many of you who have unwittingly contributed to my continuing education. Thank You
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Old 01-06-2010, 13:10   #37
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Last I checked, the load data manuals don't tell me if a load will be smokey using lead bullets, have too much muzzle flash using a certain powder, spill out of the top using a progressive press, and on and on. The manuals are great, but its the first hand experience and more detailed description of the process and more importantly the results I seek and often find here. Thanks to those who actually DO take the time to expand instead of a broken record of RTFM..
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Old 01-06-2010, 15:30   #38
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Last I checked, the load data manuals don't tell me if a load will be smokey using lead bullets, have too much muzzle flash using a certain powder, spill out of the top using a progressive press, and on and on.
Bingo.

Not to try to put a price on safety, but I (for one) cannot afford to buy 7 manuals, and then 7 more next year when the revisions come out. I rely on the manuals I have, and mfg data on websites - but I also have to rely on the knowledge of others to factor into the mix.

A manual may tell me that 6gr of HS6 is fine for a FMJ 124gr bullet, but what if I've got a 115 Lead HP bullet? If there's no data in the manuals I have, nothing on the website - what OAL should I use? Should I buy 4 more manuals (that I can't check before buying, as they are shrinkwrapped), or hop in a forum and say "Hey, I'm trying to load THIS bullet with THIS charge, at 1.125 OAL. Is this safe?"

Hell, manuals even contradict each other. Sometimes you just want a REAL PERSON to ask for feedback. They might say "well, it's safe... but a poor recipe compared to these other 2 i've used." Or, "Yes, it's safe and reliable. But as you are brand new at reloading, that's a powder that you might not want to use, as the safety margins for weight/errors are very slim. Try this powder instead."

Sorry, I'll go this route before just loading up the round based on some guessing, use a low charge, and hope to hell nothing blows up in a bad way. Each gun is different, for sure, but I can absolutely say - with no reservation - that if someone asks "Is 15gr of HS6 a safe round for 9mm?" the answer is always going to be "No, it isn't".

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Old 01-06-2010, 15:35   #39
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I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.
More like the student asking for help, guidance and instruction during the class room time, before the test. Ya know, making sure he or she understands the material well enough to take that test.

I also doubt very much that the teacher would call the student a "dumb-ass" or "stupid" for asking if he or she could have the answers to the test. Lazy, yes, but a Dumb-ass NO.

Not only do comments like this make it hard for a new guy to "fit in" and feel welcome, it takes away from the friendly, helpful atmosphere of this forum. I think that the persons that use terms like this over the Internet would be a little more diplomatic in a face to face situation. I know I've said (written) some things on these forums that I am not proud of and that I would never say to a persons face.

So, if you think I'm a Dumb-ass or Lazy fine, maybe I am, but I'm still gunna ask if I need some help, answers or opinions. If you don't like the question, say so, but at least try and be a little less hostile about it.


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Old 01-06-2010, 15:54   #40
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Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by RLDS45S Reloading
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Freak is that you? <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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Old 01-06-2010, 16:45   #41
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I also doubt very much that the teacher would call the student a "dumb-ass" or "stupid" for asking if he or she could have the answers to the test. Lazy, yes, but a Dumb-ass NO.
It's pretty rare I see anyone here or on any other forum, call someone a "Dumbass" or "stupid" for asking a legit question. It really is a fast track world & it seems if you are much younger than 40, everyone wants it right now. That's what comes across to me on many threads regarding reloading. "I don't have a manual, I just go to the powder site", that sort of attitude is short cutting the learning process. Much like trying to take a test w/o reading the mat'l. the test will be on. Yeah, you might get by but did you learn anything?
Too many newbs are not even doing the basic reading & then buy gear & come onto the sites & ask how do I do this or that & all they have to do is read the book. After you do that bare minimum, then come onto the forums sites & ask for clarifications & ideas. I don't mind repeating myself, but people are getting so lazy they won't even try to use the search features! That kind of attitude is what I would bet bothers many experienced reloaders. Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nada in the way of learning your new hobby.
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Old 01-06-2010, 16:48   #42
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It is what it is. Go over to enos site. On the reloading section the most often question is what is your favorite pet load.
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

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Old 01-06-2010, 17:01   #43
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Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nadd in the way of pursuing your new hobby.
Thank you Fred. Sort of like how many times have we seen the question: "What's the difference between a regular primer and a magnum primer?" How many newbs here, after reading that SP and SR where being interchanged, suggested to someone else that LP and LR could also be interchanged? (BTW, they cannot, they have different dimensions).

Like Fred, I'm more than willing to help out a newb; but they have to demonstrate that they've done at least a little bit of work. If they aren't willing to put anything into the hobby, then why should I put any effort into them. My hope when I help someone is that they will develop skills so that they can in turn help others. If I sense that that they are in it for themselves only, then they are on their own.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:04   #44
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Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
Uhm, seriously, NO. They are with out a doubt THE most helpful generous group of people I have ever meet. They will train you and teach you how to beat them. Thats been my experiance.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:09   #45
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Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
Yes...I would and have given out my favorite competition loads. Likewise I know very high level shooters and they readily do the same plus offer a LOT more advice to help others coming into the sport. I only have experience competing in USPSA. But the vast majority of the members that I've met and shot with have been great folks and very helpful.

Sure, there are the exceptions. And in either case, helping others or not helping others is not the real issue. If you don't want to help, fine...don't. If you do want help, great...help. But when someone goes out of their way to be rude to someone asking for help (and I certainly don't mean you...just speaking in general terms), I just don't get it. If you don't want to help, just ignore the post.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:13   #46
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RATS... C4W beat me to it. Actually I've found that shooters tend to be very generous when it comes to competition, even going so far as to lend each other equipment. The only other sport I've been involved in where competitors are as generous is Rodeo. I let other guys, as other guys have let me use, ropes, spurs, bridles and even horses.

I used to be in a bowling league where the people were very helpful but I didn't do it for long... it occurred to me that sex would be a better hobby... the balls are lighter and you don't have to change your shoes.

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Old 01-06-2010, 17:16   #47
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It's pretty rare I see anyone here or on any other forum, call someone a "Dumbass" or "stupid" for asking a legit question. It really is a fast track world & if oyu are much younger than 40, everyone wants it right now. That's what comes across to me on amny threads regarding reloading. "I don't have a manual, I just go to the pwoder site", that sort of attitude is short cutting the learning process. Much like trying to take a test w/o reading the mat'l. the test will be on. Yeah, you might get by but did you learn anything?
Too many newbs are not even doing the basic reading & buy gear then come onto the sites & ask how do I do this or that & all they have to do is read the book. After you do that bare minimum, then come onto the forums sites & ask for clarifications & ideas. I don't mind repeating myself, but people are getting so lazy they won't even try to use the search features! That kind of attitude is what I would bet bothers many experienced reloaders. Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nadd in the way of pursuing your new hobby.
I agree, and when I respond to these types of questions I always try and emphasize the need to read the manuals first, after that Read it again, then ask questions. Many times my written words come across harder than I intended. Sometimes not hard enough. So, what do we do? We can ignore the post, help out with some solid helpful advice, or we can be rude/mean and discouraging to our new members to the reloading world. I choose to ignore or be helpful.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:48   #48
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Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
Well, on this one I have to differ. I do recognize the need for new reloaders to digest the basics rather than, just ask for directions as so many seem to do nowadays. I guess that's why I have a shelf of manuals dating back 4 decades and still accumulating. It's fairly easy to use published information, pick your components and crank out perfectly fine general purpose rounds. Over time, you can put forth the effort and develop whatever type of load that floats your boat without any input from anyone...I did it for a lot of years. That said, I see no problem sharing load information especially, data intended for a specific purpose. Although I've been at this a long time, several of the most accurate loads I have were actually developed by someone else.

Serious competitors are some of the most generous and helpful people you could hope for. Most of them willingly share not only their load data but helpful tips on technique, practice, efficiency and otherwise. When someone has a problem with a gun, load or anything shooting related these guys are first in line to offer their knowledge and assistance. Some (ala, Rob Leatham) even has helpful websites where specific questions are submitted and answered. The overwhelming majority of competitive shooters have a love of the sport and a genuine desire to do whatever possible to attract new shooters and help make the experience enjoyable. On a side note, we all owe them a great deal of gratitude for the advances their experimentation has led to in both firearms and reloading.

Load data is also shared by other notables other than competitors. The BullseyeL forum has a web page where noted Bullseye shooters list their best bullet/load combinations. Several custom gun & barrel makers (i.e., Wilson Combat) provide specific data for extracting the most from their products. Even military marksmanship team load data is available. Some of the accuracy loads printed is Shooting Sports USA have proved outstanding as have many other publications.

My point is, shared data is (or, should be) an adjunct to "the manuals"...not, a replacement. Perhaps equally as important for new reloaders to develop in addition to their loading skills is, the ability to discern hot air and hyperbole from a reasoned response. It IS the internet and the person sitting at the other keyboard may be a 12 year old with an imagination.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:10   #49
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An honest question I have-----why does a reloading section exist here if not to share and discuss information? For some of you I would ask--What do you say is a "legitimate" use of the reloading forum? I still believe it is to share info----but trust me, any information I get from anyone, internet or otherwise, is going to be checked and double checked in one of my own manuals. I value my guns---they cost me too much and I can't afford to replace them. I value the health and safety of my friends and my own body too much to risk everyone being injured by flying shrapnel and gun parts. I don't mean necessarily we should all be giving specific loads right down to the fine print and everyone taking them at face value----but to throw out good/bad combinations of powder, bullets, etc....you have found seems to me to be the essence of what this forum is about.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:25   #50
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Originally Posted by dudel View Post
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
That part has never bothered me. I would & have even give a guy a gun & my ammo to shoot against me if his went to crap on him. It's always going to be the shooter, not the gear.
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Last edited by fredj338; 01-06-2010 at 18:27..
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